# Is it normal to be dismissed from a job for no reason? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 23, 2015, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396 "2015-02-23T09:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/41 "2015-02-23T22:36:33Z")
> [@Syne](#): > > I am probably projecting a little here, but my experience is that this systematic stonewalling comes from managers who don’t like confrontation. Usually it stems from being a bad fit for a leadership role because they are not assertive enough, and have a hard time handling assertive employees. The way this is supposed to work is that performance reviews include at least some feedback about areas of improvement. Actually the way it is really supposed to work is that managers give feedback all the time, but that is rare. Feedback once a year is worse than immediate feedback and feedback when someone gets fired is worse still. There are lots of reasons not to give feedback at termination. The person is going to feel bad enough - why make it worse with five deficiencies, especially because there is nothing the person can do about it. From the manager’s point of view they don’t want arguments about the fine points. This can go on forever. And will never help. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/42 "2015-02-23T22:50:16Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Note to self: middle-managers are sly wordsmiths and judges were born yesterday. Good to know. 😛 This wouldn’t have been done without a fair amount of time consulting HR, who does know how to keep the company bulletproof. And judges may not have been born yesterday, but their job often requires them to act like it. They want you gone? You’re gone. The real reason doesn’t matter at that point, and the stated reason, if they even give you one (less bother and less chance of giving you an opening to challenge it if they don’t, which is why they didn’t), matters even less. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/43 "2015-02-23T23:20:32Z")
In Thailand, you can be fired for no apparent reason whatsoever, but the employer has to pay compensation unless it’s a clear case of rules violation. There’s a set formula – depending on how long you’ve worked, you get X months’ salary up to a ceiling of, I think, eight months. Plus if the dismissal occurs with less than 30 days’ notice, the employer must add an extra month’s pay on top of that. Of course, salaries, particularly for Thais, tend to be cheap anyway, so getting rid of the unwanted is never expensive, and there are no legal repercussions whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Syne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Syne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syne)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/44 "2015-02-24T00:23:16Z")
Well of course I got my legal severance but that was only 1 month pay. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/45 "2015-02-24T00:42:18Z")
> [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](#): > > The whole point of right to work laws is to allow employers to fire people for petty or illegal reasons and claim it’s for no reason at all. > [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Barring that, it is perfectly legal for any employer to terminate you far any reason without explanation in most states; this is what is meant by the term “right to work.” No. “[Right to work](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law)” laws mean you cannot be required to join a union to get a job. Laws that allow you to fire someone for any or no reason are “[at will](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment)” employment laws. There are only 24 states with right to work laws, and only one that doesn’t allow termination at will. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/46 "2015-02-24T00:59:45Z")
> [@Syne](#): > > A few months ago I was dismissed from my job of 2+ years for no reason. They veiled it as a ‘restructuring’ that affected no other employee but me. When asked for the motivating factors behind the restructuring, management was evasive. I was told it was not performance related. > > Is it wrong of me to feel like I am owed a legit reason here? Lying to me and providing no feedback is not truthful, and while it might be liability-limiting, I find the dishonesty unprofessional. > > If I am going to move forward and learn to conduct myself better in future jobs, I rely on past employers to provide feedback to help prevent repeating the same mistakes. My request for an exit interview was denied. My request for a follow-up with my manager was denied. My request for a letter of recommendation and a reference was denied. The most they would give me is a confirmation of employment. Yet, they doggedly maintain I did nothing wrong. > > I qualify for unemployment, but am not eligible for legal recourse in my province, so I am not looking for that… Just wondering if this is standard practice. I still talk to a lot of people from this workplace and my dismissal left everyone baffled. Gossip hasn’t trickled down to the rank and file, so whoever orchestrated it was surgical about it. > > Anyways, this is a debate forum, not about me… So I would ask the question of whether employers have an ethical obligation to provide employees with honest feedback upon termination? 1. They made it clear it isn’t performance related 2. You indicate you wish to learn how to “conduct yourself better” in future jobs 3. They don’t want to give you an exit interview 4. They won’t give you a follow-up with your manager 5. They won’t give you a letter or recommendation or a reference 6. Gossip hasn’t “trickled down” I don’t have a dog in your fight, but Helen Keller could see this one. No one is baffled as to why you were let go, and deep down, neither are you. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/47 "2015-02-24T01:38:03Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > I don’t have a dog in your fight, but Helen Keller could see this one. No one is baffled as to why you were let go, and deep down, neither are you. He lacked sufficient connections to the good ole boy network of managers? He wasn’t playing golf with the business’s upper management and godfather to their kids? That’s the reason. Every reason you named is “he was not in deep with the people in the know” ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/48 "2015-02-24T01:39:39Z")
> [@Syne](#): > > Well of course I got my legal severance but that was only 1 month pay. Don’t you qualify for unemployment insurance, or whatever it’s called in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/49 "2015-02-24T02:02:26Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Even in a restructuring and downsizing, unless you are unique and the only one that does what you do in your organization, your past performance will definitely come into play when it comes to decide who gets to go. Companies don’t draw rocks out of bag to determine who should be laid off. They definitely keep the best performers or in some cases if performance differences are marginal, they may keep the lowest paid. > > Sorry for your situation. Best of luck. This is not always true. For example, if they’ve decided to outsource your department to India then it really doesn’t matter how good you are. You’re not about to move to India and work for 25% of your old salary, are you? Or another example from my personal experience. I once did Requests for Proposals for a big company - some of these RFPs were for multi-million dollar projects and ran hundreds of pages. Their internal people for this sucked, and they knew it, which is why they’d hire me at all. However, when big budget cuts came along (an internal source said informally they laid off every contractor and 20% of their employees), they decided two things: 1) the quality of the RFP didn’t affect their final win/loss rate enough to justify paying top dollar to prepare them; and 2) they were paying their internal people half of what they were paying me. So I think it would be a mistake to assume that downsizing had anything to do with one’s past performance. Maybe it did and maybe it didn’t. You can’t know; even if they told you something that sounded true, you still wouldn’t know for sure. In both of the above cases, it shouldn’t take much imagination to understand why the company doesn’t want to explain the situation in any official way. There’s a lot of potential for bad press - “Struggling company decides RFPs don’t matter!” “Major US government supplier offshores their workforce!” Yeah, that’s not the kind of publicity they want. If it means somebody low on the totem pole gets a vague answer about why they were fired… welcome to life where things mostly suck most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![brainstall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@brainstall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainstall)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/50 "2015-02-24T02:22:33Z")
I posted about my own abrupt dismissal, but recently at my current company, a manager was let go. I don’t know the circumstances, or what reasons were given, but I’m pretty sure ‘because all the people you were supposed to be supervising disliked you, did not respect you, and thought you did no work’ isn’t something HR wants to tell someone on the way out the door. We all wondered how he kept his job as long as he did, but the firing did come as somewhat of a surprise. Why would you think your employer owes you an explanation? You got let go for a reason that is beyond your control, so should not reflect badly on you in your job search, and are eligible to collect EI. Would you have preferred them to have fired you for cause? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/51 "2015-02-24T05:25:43Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > On the other hand, I have heard on multiple occasions heard of aberrant negative performance reviews being entered for people before a layoff (recent story [here](http://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/at-work/tech-careers/massive-worldwide-layoff-underway-at-ibm)). Clearly in such cases layoff targets are being selected for other reasons and performance measures are being “managed” to achieve the required result. Sometimes that isn’t even done by, shall we say, “corporate reasons”. Back in 2003, I and three other Europeans were part of a very large project team working out of the US. Our manager moved on and his replacement’s main job was “to help team members find new positions within the company, as the project winds down”. Do you guys think there might be any relationship between that guy hating foreigners (4), women (1), people with masters degrees (4), and people not of his religion (4), and us getting “unemployable” evaluations? Maybe he was just bad at math, he somehow managed to average items on which evals from our internal clients rated us at 4 or 5 and get 0. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/52 "2015-02-24T13:47:24Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > No. “[Right to work](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law)” laws mean you cannot be required to join a union to get a job. Laws that allow you to fire someone for any or no reason are “[at will](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment)” employment laws. > > There are only 24 states with right to work laws, and only one that doesn’t allow termination at will. I stand corrected; I have heard the term used so often in the context I mentioned I never even thought to actually look it up. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/53 "2015-02-24T15:36:15Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > He lacked sufficient connections to the good ole boy network of managers? He wasn’t playing golf with the business’s upper management and godfather to their kids? That’s the reason. Every reason you named is “he was not in deep with the people in the know” No, I quoted their own words. Everything they said indicated that the reason was clear but was going to remain unspoken. Sometimes people do not want to deal with an issue or issues any longer. Years ago I worked with a woman who did a decent job. There was one issue with her. She meowed at her desk. It got to be disruptive. She got canned during a reorganization that eliminated only her. Same with the guy who liked to constantly complain about noise pollution. And the guy with really bad b.o. And the girl who couldn’t manage to grasp that “no tube tops” actually meant no tube tops. All of them did their jobs just fine and some were likeable people but there comes a day when enough is enough and you don’t want to argue for the 976th time about how they are wearing a shirt over their tube top so it shouldn’t count, the meowing is self-soothing and isn’t that loud, the effects of noise pollution far outweigh whatever and you decide to have a mini reorganization and eliminate that persons position solely to get rid of that person and not discuss it or put up with it any further. Of course anyone they contact is going to act sympathetic to their face. They just lost their job. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/54 "2015-02-24T15:42:26Z")
… like, meowing how, exactly? It would be really quiet, typetypetypetype, “mmmmmmmrrrrow?” ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/55 "2015-02-24T15:47:27Z")
[There are worse ways to be dismissed from your job](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=525964) than to be denied a coherent reason. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/56 "2015-02-24T18:05:02Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > … like, meowing how, exactly? It would be really quiet, typetypetypetype, “mmmmmmmrrrrow?” You got it. We thought she was smuggling her cat in to work until someone saw her let out a meow. Then the next big thing was everyone trying to covertly catch her meowing. Then came the talks. The bargaining (maybe you could meow silently?) and over time it became too much of a distraction (it went from funny to OMG this is so annoying fairly quickly) and took up too much time to deal with on a regular basis. People who couldn’t block it out had to be moved, a person who blocked it out by playing the radio had the radio too loud for another persons tastes, and on and on. Ripple effect. It’s easier to can the offender with a b.s. budget cut or restructuring excuse than to keep dealing with nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Syne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Syne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syne)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/57 "2015-02-24T19:31:05Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > You got it. We thought she was smuggling her cat in to work until someone saw her let out a meow. > > Then the next big thing was everyone trying to covertly catch her meowing. Then came the talks. The bargaining (maybe you could meow silently?) and over time it became too much of a distraction (it went from funny to OMG this is so annoying fairly quickly) and took up too much time to deal with on a regular basis. People who couldn’t block it out had to be moved, a person who blocked it out by playing the radio had the radio too loud for another persons tastes, and on and on. Ripple effect. > > It’s easier to can the offender with a b.s. budget cut or restructuring excuse than to keep dealing with nonsense. Sounds like she had a legitimate anxiety disorder that manifested itself in making a specific noise, and you fired her for it. Stay classy I guess. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/58 "2015-02-24T19:39:07Z")
> [@Syne](#): > > Sounds like she had a legitimate anxiety disorder that manifested itself in making a specific noise, and you fired her for it. Stay classy I guess. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/59 "2015-02-24T19:50:57Z")
> [@Syne](#): > > Sounds like she had a legitimate anxiety disorder that manifested itself in making a specific noise, and you fired her for it. Stay classy I guess. Sounds like we had a disruptive employee who was a distraction and negatively affected the environment for everyone else. After trying to make it work with no cooperation from her or effort on her end, we took action and cut her loose. She’s free to find a workplace that will tolerate that behavior or at the very least won’t be noticed (like an animal shelter) or to start her own company where employees are encouraged to meow often and loudly. Free country and all that. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396/60 "2015-02-24T20:17:04Z")
> [@Syne](#): > > Sounds like she had a legitimate anxiety disorder that manifested itself in making a specific noise, and you fired her for it. Stay classy I guess. If you were meowing at work, the mystery of your dismissal has been solved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-be-dismissed-from-a-job-for-no-reason/713396.md?page=4)