# Is it normal to change this many horses midstream? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913 "2004-11-15T19:48:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/1 "2004-11-15T19:48:51Z")
A lot of people were talking before the election about voting for Bush because they didn’t want to “change horses midstream.” Now it looks like his cabinet members are jumping ship left and right. According to [MSNBC](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6492183/?GT1=5809), the following people have already jumped or are expected to jump soon: [ul][li] **Secretary of State** - Colin Powell, resigned[/li][li] **Energy Secretary** - Spencer Abraham, expected to resign[/li][li] **Agriculture Secretary** - Ann Veneman, resigned[/li][li] **Education Secretary** - Rod Paige, resigned[/li][li] **Secretary of Defense** - Donald Rumsfeld, expected to resign “within a year or two”[/li][li] **National Securtiy Adviser** - Condoleeza Rice, expected to resign[/li][li] **Tresury Secretary** - John Snow, expected to resign[/li][li] **Secretary of Homeland Security** - Tom Ridge, expected to resgin[/li][li] **US Trade Representative** - Robert Zoellick, expected to resign[/li][li] **Attorney General** - John Ashcroft, resigned[/li][li] **Commerce Secretary** - Donald Evans, resigned[/li][/ul] So, is this a normal exodus that was to be expected at the dawn of a new term? If the President stays but nearly his entire administration turns over does the argument that you don’t want to change horses midstream really hold water? There are some pretty important and high-profile people in that list. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/2 "2004-11-15T19:58:19Z")
[Compare with previous administrations](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0101184.html). ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/3 "2004-11-15T20:02:30Z")
As I understand it, Condoleeza Rice is expected to be offered the Secretary of Stat position. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/4 "2004-11-15T20:02:45Z")
Here, for purposes of comparison, are some Clinton cabinet picks: State - Warren Christopher Madeline Albright Treasury - Lloyd Bentsen Robert E. Rubin Lawrence H. Summers Defense - Les Aspin William J. Perry William S. Cohen Agriculture - Mike Espy Dan Glickman Commerce - Ronald H. Brown Mickey Kantor William M. Daley Norman Y. Mineta Labor - Robert B. Reich Alexis Herman HUD - Henry G. Cisneros Andrew M. Cuomo Transportation - Federico F. Peña Rodney Slater Energy - Hazel R. O’Leary Frederico F. Peña Bill Richardson VA - Jesse Brown Togo D. West Jr. All other Cabinet positions in the Clinton era were filled by one person only. The remarkable thing is that there were no major Cabinet shakeups before now, in the Bush administration. Cabinet changeover isn’t terribly unexpected. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/5 "2004-11-15T20:03:03Z")
Sure. It’s a standard practice for a re-elected President to ask for the resignations of all of his cabinet, and then ask a selected few to stay on. [Here’s a list of the Clinton Cabinet.](http://u-s-history.com/pages/h1409.html) Note that Secretary of State Christopher, Secretary of Defense Perry, Secretary of Commerce Kantor, Secretary of Labor Reich, Secretary of HUD Cisneros, Secretary of Transportation Pena, and Secretary of Energy O’Leary all left after Clinton’s first term- 7 total. And that list doesn’t include US Trade Representative or National Security Advisor; I don’t remember what happened with them. Looking at previous administrations- Reagan had 6 Cabinet members leave or switch; Nixon had 8; and LBJ had 4. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/6 "2004-11-15T20:29:37Z")
So, what are the odds of Colin Powell’s tell-all book coming out inside of a year? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/7 "2004-11-15T20:31:42Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > So, what are the odds of Colin Powell’s tell-all book coming out inside of a year? 😉 Zero. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/8 "2004-11-15T20:39:05Z")
Hm. Well, DoE Sec Abraham has definitely resigned, if the announcement to all DoE folks is to be believed. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/9 "2004-11-15T22:44:42Z")
I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that Colin Powell will be the Jeanne Kirkpatrick of the Republicans: sometime in the future, he’s going to switch and become a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/10 "2004-11-15T23:35:25Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > So, what are the odds of Colin Powell’s tell-all book coming out inside of a year? 😉 One can only hope. ---
**Author:** ![EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilHamsterOnCrack)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/11 "2004-11-15T23:50:21Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > Sure. > > It’s a standard practice for a re-elected President to ask for the resignations of all of his cabinet, and then ask a selected few to stay on. > > [Here’s a list of the Clinton Cabinet.](http://u-s-history.com/pages/h1409.html) Note that Secretary of State Christopher, Secretary of Defense Perry, Secretary of Commerce Kantor, Secretary of Labor Reich, Secretary of HUD Cisneros, Secretary of Transportation Pena, and Secretary of Energy O’Leary all left after Clinton’s first term- 7 total. And that list doesn’t include US Trade Representative or National Security Advisor; I don’t remember what happened with them. > > Looking at previous administrations- Reagan had 6 Cabinet members leave or switch; Nixon had 8; and LBJ had 4. I think the OP was attempting to make a point that during Wartime, would it be a good idea to change all these positions? Especially those concerning Defense/War. The argument was commonly used by Republicans before the election as a reason to elect Bush to a second term. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/12 "2004-11-16T00:13:10Z")
> [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](#): > > …The argument was commonly used by Republicans before the election as a reason to elect Bush to a second term. Really? I don’t recall any ‘Vote for us because Rummy will stay on as SecDef’ campaign ads. ---
**Author:** ![EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilHamsterOnCrack)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/13 "2004-11-16T00:26:22Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Really? I don’t recall any ‘Vote for us because Rummy will stay on as SecDef’ campaign ads. Note, I didn’t say that. That’s extremely warping my wording. I said that the argument was to elect BUSH to a second term. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/14 "2004-11-16T00:40:26Z")
With the exception of Harold Ickes and James Forrestal, the entire Cabinet in place in November 1944 was gone by November 1945. If we have the Vietnam War start in 1965, then LBJ replaced his Secretary of the Treasury, Secretary of Defense, Attorney-General, Secretary of Commerce, Postmaster General, and HEW Secretary between the start of the war and his leaving office. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/15 "2004-11-16T01:42:22Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Really? I don’t recall any ‘Vote for us because Rummy will stay on as SecDef’ campaign ads. Brutus, why are you pretending that you have no idea what the point of his post was? We heard Bush and assorted supporters say repeatedly “_Ya don’t wanna change horses in midstream!_” Got that? Horse **s**. Not the jockey, not the breeders and not the stable hands. _The horses._ If the cabinet members aren’t the work horses of an administration, I don’t know who is. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-normal-to-change-this-many-horses-midstream/274913/16 "2004-11-16T02:27:48Z")
> [@Patty O'Furniture](#): > > We heard Bush and assorted supporters say repeatedly “_Ya don’t wanna change horses in midstream!_” :rolleyes: Sure. I heard that oh! so often. > [@](#): > > Got that? Horse **s**. Not the jockey, not the breeders and not the stable hands. _The horses._ If the cabinet members aren’t the work horses of an administration, I don’t know who is. You parse good no. Does ‘You don’t wanna change horse in midstream’ sound better to you? I thought not.