# Is it objectively and unquestionably racist if a company does this... **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 4, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940 "2019-02-04T12:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/41 "2019-02-06T06:36:44Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > It is possible to bring in more business than some others but still be in an entry level position on the org chart. > . Is it? Is it possible to be the highest fee earner and the lowest on the list? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/42 "2019-02-06T06:38:22Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > “As the list is in order of the company hierarchy, this makes it appear that I am the lowest employee of the company. Am I?” > > “No, you are not” > > “Then why am I listed outside of the established hierarchy? How could anyone look at this, see themselves listed last and believe that others will know their true place in the company order? People will review the list and believe that I am the lowest employee.” > > Maybe a few words about ‘losing face’ if necessary to make the point. I brought it up with the boss. He’s not changing it. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/43 "2019-02-06T07:49:47Z")
I think the issue is moral would drop in the office if people saw that a gaijin had some superiority or power over them. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/44 "2019-02-06T11:06:49Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > First of all, given your description, this is not an issue of racism. “English” and “Japanese” are not races, they are nationalities. Secondly, it’s impossible to tell from the limited information we have whether it is an issue of nationalism or not. You say the list is hierarchical, but give conflicting information on how the hierarchy is structured. You initially indicate that the list goes from highest position to lowest, as in an org chart, but then you say you should be higher on the list because you generate more income for the firm than others. It is possible to bring in more business than some others but still be in an entry level position on the org chart. > > It would be easier to determine intent if there were more non-Japanese employees and they all were at the bottom of the list, but since it is just you it’s hard to say. Actually everything you said here is WTF level wrong. “English” and “Japanese” are languages. I don’t give conflicting information. I give all the pertinent facts. People who want to invent things like “branch offices” are just making up things that do not exist. All the relevant information was given - I am not hiding certain relevant information from you. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/45 "2019-02-06T15:23:33Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Is it? Is it possible to be the highest fee earner and the lowest on the list? Absolutely it is, depending on how the list is structured. If it is hierarchical, fee earning has nothing to do with the order. Same if the list is by seniority. For example, let’s pretend I just started at a car dealership in an entry level position as Sales Apprentice. On my first day my eccentric billionaire uncle comes in and buys every car on the lot from me. On day 2, the dealership puts out an employee contact list. If that list is sorted by hierarchy or seniority, I will still be at the bottom regardless of the fact that I made more money for the company than anyone else. > [@Isamu](#): > > “English” and “Japanese” are languages. They are also [nationalities](https://www.vocabulary.cl/Basic/Nationalities.htm). They are not, however, [races](https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(sociology)). > [@Isamu](#): > > I don’t give conflicting information. It seemed to me that you did. Perhaps I misunderstood, but the following didn’t add up to me: > [@Isamu](#): > > They have a hierarchy list of contact people, top is the boss, bottom is the lowest. So it’s by position in the company - hierarchical. > [@Isamu](#): > > But I know I earn much more than most people on that list (earn for the company and earn for myself) Do I really need to be on the bottom? But maybe it’s by the amount of fees earned… > [@Isamu](#): > > It’s just a list of staff that is organised by seniority but has me, the only gaijin, at the bottom. Or perhaps it’s sorted by length of time with the company… I didn’t mean to upset you, but I hope you can see my confusion. In any case, there is no evidence that the list is racist. For that to be true you would have to show that a non-Japanese Asian would also be treated unfairly. The list could possibly be xenophobic, but without knowing the master sort order and where you should actually fit into that, we can’t tell. ---
**Author:** ![amaguri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@amaguri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amaguri)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/46 "2019-02-06T17:23:26Z")
Am I misunderstanding something? I believe my company does this because they are asked to report % of women and minority employees on active staff to the state. It’s certainly not malicious here. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/47 "2019-02-07T00:45:36Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Absolutely it is, depending on how the list is structured. If it is hierarchical, fee earning has nothing to do with the order. Same if the list is by seniority. For example, let’s pretend I just started at a car dealership in an entry level position as Sales Apprentice. On my first day my eccentric billionaire uncle comes in and buys every car on the lot from me. On day 2, the dealership puts out an employee contact list. If that list is sorted by hierarchy or seniority, I will still be at the bottom regardless of the fact that I made more money for the company than anyone else. > They are also [nationalities](https://www.vocabulary.cl/Basic/Nationalities.htm). They are not, however, [races](https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(sociology)). > It seemed to me that you did. Perhaps I misunderstood, but the following didn’t add up to me: > > So it’s by position in the company - hierarchical. > > But maybe it’s by the amount of fees earned… > > Or perhaps it’s sorted by length of time with the company… > > I didn’t mean to upset you, but I hope you can see my confusion. In any case, there is no evidence that the list is racist. For that to be true you would have to show that a non-Japanese Asian would also be treated unfairly. The list could possibly be xenophobic, but without knowing the master sort order and where you should actually fit into that, we can’t tell. I’ve been with the company longer than anyone else. I named it. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/48 "2019-02-07T01:11:17Z")
> [@amaguri](#): > > Am I misunderstanding something? I believe my company does this because they are asked to report % of women and minority employees on active staff to the state. It’s certainly not malicious here. So you put all minorities and women at the bottom of your hierarchical list. Having the white male CEO at the top and the white male pot-plant waterer last, then follow the women and minorities who are all put at the very bottom? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/49 "2019-02-07T01:34:06Z")
Why is it so important for you to convince us you’re right (especially when your OP left out some major details)? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/50 "2019-02-07T02:06:10Z")
I want to know the answer. I don’t always know how much people already know about certain things, so sometimes I include too much or too little info - that is a fault of mine. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/51 "2019-02-07T03:01:16Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > First of all, given your description, this is not an issue of racism. “English” and “Japanese” are not races, they are nationalities. Secondly, it’s impossible to tell from the limited information we have whether it is an issue of nationalism or not. > [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > They are also [nationalities](https://www.vocabulary.cl/Basic/Nationalities.htm). They are not, however, [races](https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(sociology)). This is a kinda weird nitpick. I don’t know if we are seeing racism, nationalism or something else either. But even if you are adhering to a traditional ‘five races’ definition of race, last I checked most self-identified English and Japanese folks ended up in different categories from each other. Saying categorically it can’t be racism makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/52 "2019-02-07T03:04:31Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I want to know the answer. Then you need to ask the people who created the list. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/53 "2019-02-07T03:39:32Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Then you need to ask the people who created the list. Now this is interesting. Does a racist always know what a racist act is? And will they admit what they do is racist? Often not, IMHE. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/54 "2019-02-07T05:02:02Z")
I tend to err on the side of _not_ being outraged. If you ask them about the list, and get back an offensive reply, then it’s the right time to be offended. As for your conversation with your friend, right now (s)he “wins”. As an expat in China, my company singles me out in many ways. Finding things which _could potentially_ be racist but also could have a number of legitimate explanations does not yet constitute even weak evidence for racism IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/55 "2019-02-07T07:28:48Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I think the issue is moral would drop in the office if people saw that a gaijin had some superiority or power over them. …which is clearly a racist issue, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/56 "2019-02-07T11:27:40Z")
OK, rather than do the dishes, I’ll procrastinate and wade deeper into this. First, this is quite a complex issue. Your OP asks for something impossible, a black and white answer to something which has too many factors. Recapping my history in Japan; I lived there for 25 years over a 35-year period. I worked for both Japanese and American companies and had my own company as well. I was in management in three different Japanese companies and set up the Japan branch office for a US manufacturer. I speak “business fluent” Japanese. I’m sure that **Isamu** is at least or more knowledgeable about Japan, so nothing here should be great insights for him, but sometimes having someone else articular things can be useful. There is no doubt that Japanese are incredibly insular. It’s really hard for Japanese to relate to non-Japanese and many simply can’t get what foreigners can or can’t understand about Japan. They can be quite stupid about that. OTOH, it’s really easy to assign racism as a motive when it may not be the case. A couple of examples of stupidity of both sides. First was when my American friend’s child was enrolled in kindergarten. The mother is Japanese, and the child speaks Japanese fluently. The kindergarten used hiragana (Japanese syllabary) for the names of all of the children because the children can’t write kanji. Except for my friend’s child, and they wrote that in katakana (the syllabary used for writing foreign names) despite the fact that the girl’s name is Japanese, and she uses her mother’s surname. This isn’t malicious racism, but it’s racism. I just don’t see the same kind of differentiation here in Taiwan. People don’t care about our kids and if they are “Taiwanese,” (scare quotes intentional) to the same degree people in Japan care if someone is “Japanese.” Go to any _gaijin bar_ and you’ll hear people bitching about racism for everything. Then listen to the story and want to slap them, and tell them that whatever happened to them was because they were stupid, not because they are white. My Taiwanese wife was in a close group of friends in Japan. Before I met her, she had had a Taiwanese boyfriend and the two of them were core members of the group. He cheated on her, she kicked him out and we met. Many of the people in the group were shocked when we started to date. An American friend thought it was because of racial discrimination, that the group was unhappy that a white guy was joining them, but that was silly because there were several Westerners already in the group. The ex-boyfriend was well liked and a lot of people had hoped that they would get back together. IMHO, my American friend was just too quick to play the race card. Only the OP can really know which of these his situation is in. I wouldn’t be surprised if this list is symbolic of all the little annoyances which comes from working as a foreigner for a Japanese company. One single piece of paper isn’t a big deal, but if it’s the final straw then I can see not backing down. As I wrote earlier, Japanese are meticulous about rank. In the Tokugawa period, farm families would be ranked very carefully by the size of their homes, number of servants, etc., etc. My first job in Japan was working for a printing / document company and we would made company brochures. They would list the size of the buildings to the second digit. There aren’t casual lists, scribbled on the back on an envelope. A lot of thought goes into these things. It sounds like the boss hasn’t figured out how to really integrate a foreigner into the company. I had a friend who played for a team in the Japanese basketball league (back in the early 90s, when it was a different format). The teams could have one foreigner play at a time, so they would have usually have two centers and rotate them. None of the teams were really good at adjusting the playing style of the Americans and the Japanese. The Americans were necessary evils, but not really integrated. Final story. We just went up for a short vacation to Japan. I needed to get an emergency replacement for some meds (long story) so we had to go to a clinic. The receptionist did that thing where she and I were having the conversation while she was intently looking at my wife for confirmation, despite my wife not having a clue as to what was going on and that I was the one who knew all the answers. My wife and I speak about the same level of Japanese, but since she has an Asian face, then she just wanted to talk to her. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/57 "2019-02-07T12:26:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Why is it so important for you to convince us you’re right (especially when your OP left out some major details)? Likely because there are a lot of (implied or not) accusations of impropriety against the OP in this thread, which tends to make them feel the need to defend themselves and their position. Not to mention the pointless digression over whether “racism” is the right word when we all understand what the OP means: were they treated differently because they are not Japanese? It’s just so pointless. I mean, if you go by what the OP has said, there is definitely a good case for racism (or whatever you want to call it). The alternate explanations aren’t that convincing. It seems unlikely the OP would be the only “local” or the only one in a separate class. The system is hierarchical, so stuff about the writing system aren’t relevant. And, with the work hierarchy being so important in Japan, putting them on the bottom does sound like saying “you’re the least important to this company.” Maybe there is another reason, but no one seems to have found it, and it doesn’t sound like the boss gave one. The most benign reason I came up with was “they thought it wouldn’t matter to the foreigner,” but the OP talked to the boss about it. And the reason the OP seems to have gotten from the boss is that it’s about morale, that Japanese people wouldn’t want a foreigner above them. And that is definitely an issue of being treated differently because the OP isn’t Japanese–so fits what they mean by “racism.” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/58 "2019-02-07T14:29:41Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Now this is interesting. Does a racist always know what a racist act is? And will they admit what they do is racist? Often not, IMHE. All you’re asking is how was the ordering done for the list, not whether they are racist. Gather some relevant data and then worry about interpretation after. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/59 "2019-02-07T15:47:23Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Not to mention the pointless digression over whether “racism” is the right word when we all understand what the OP means: were they treated differently because they are not Japanese? It’s just so pointless. It can in some cases be pointless to argue when the term ‘racism’ is used to describe situations where people within a country or society, say in the US, are viewed as inferior because they belong to an ethnicity or national origin that’s not properly speaking a race, ‘racism’ against Hispanics in the US, in Japan against Japanese permanent residents of Korean ethnicity, etc. However in a case like this there is more going on. A view by American management in an American company in Japan that the staff sent from the US is ‘our people’ in a way the locally hired Japanese staff are not quite, is not itself ‘racism’. Likewise a German co in the US which views staff sent from Germany differently than locally hired staff. That kind of view is arguably unfair, it’s often not a good business practice in my first hand experience of both cases wrt Japan (US co’s in Japan, Japanese ones in the US), but distinguishing this from racism is not the same more purely semantic argument as to whether ‘racism’ applies in cases other than whole races. The Japanese company I worked for in the US definitely distinguished between people from Japan, in all actual cases of Japanese ethnicity, who were hired by the company on its ‘lifetime employment’ career track back in Japan, and people from Japan hired by the company in the US who were not part of that group. The locally hired Japanese people of course had a language/culture affinity with ‘Japanese staff’ day to day in the office, but were if anything IMO taken less seriously for long term career advancement than certain locally hired Americans of non-Asian background. People who’d gotten a career track job with this company back in Japan then been sent to the US viewed themselves as having been accepted into the Ivy League. Then they politely got along with people who worked at the university cafeteria (IOW Japanese people hired by the company in the US). It’s also true that, differently from the college analogy, they tended just to not directly compare themselves to Americans hired by the company in the US. Because, they were Japanese and those were Americans, and Japanese and Americans are different, to them. And in cases where they’d report to those Americans, or that might be the implication of the org chart, yes there was sensitivity about that, but not a universal rejection of it to be fair. Anyway that’s not exactly ‘racist’ either IMO, and it’s not just a semantic quibble because ‘American’ (certainly) and even ‘Japanese’ are not scientifically speaking races. IOW there was a caste system in that company, but a reason to hesitate immediately branding it ‘racist’ IMO. I think that kind of broad brush obscures rather than informs. None of which is to say OP’s complaint is invalid. I do think the initial wording of the question and missing info was misleading though, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940/60 "2019-02-07T16:01:30Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I’ve been with the company longer than anyone else. I named it. Again, this has no bearing unless the list is by seniority. It’s pretty clear at this point that you don’t understand how the list is sorted, so we can’t help you with determining why you may be at the bottom. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > This is a kinda weird nitpick. I don’t know if we are seeing racism, nationalism or something else either. But even if you are adhering to a traditional ‘five races’ definition of race, last I checked most self-identified English and Japanese folks ended up in different categories from each other. Saying categorically it can’t be racism makes no sense. Which is why I said no such thing. My actual words were: > [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > In any case, there is no evidence that the list is racist. For that to be true you would have to show that a non-Japanese Asian would also be treated unfairly. The list could possibly be xenophobic, but without knowing the master sort order and where you should actually fit into that, we can’t tell. In other words, still not enough data to draw an accurate conclusion. The suggestion to ask the PTB about the sort order is still the best next step. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-objectively-and-unquestionably-racist-if-a-company-does-this/828940.md?page=2)