My kids have been raised the same. At six my daughter ordered snails in a restaurant and ate them while the kitchen all peeked at her from the kitchen door. She’d had them before. The waiter came up and said “the kitchen would like to buy the young lady’s dessert.”
But if you grow up in a small town, or without disposable income, or both, or with a parent who thinks dinner is meat of the chicken/beef/pork variety and some potatoes - yeah, its unlikely you’ve had exposure to a lot of cuisines…the same daughter had a friend who’s father was of the meat and potatoes epicurean set - we took her out for her first sushi, her first Indian, her first Thai, her first creme brulee, her first oysters…
I am so not Jewish, but I do know that you don’t confront someone else about their personal definition of kosher - which even in my limited experience can mean “we have two kitchens in our house. our dishes are color coded, and we will only eat at home, in another kosher home or in a restaurant that has rabbinical certification” to “I have this great excuse to demand no pepperoni on pizza cause I don’t like it, but will narf down a bacon cheeseburger the next time we all go out.” (I will internally roll my eyes at the second one).
When inviting anyone with dietary restrictions to dinner, you should get clarification…
(The more complicated answer - from someone who has had dietary restrictions - is if you are really strict, you need to do your research. I’m gluten intolerant, but I have known people who are so sensitive that they’ll only go to certain restaurants and will quiz the waitstaff and chef. If you aren’t strict, I’m not - you can usually figure it out from the menu and maybe with a question “are there croutons on that salad?” “Can you find out if the gravy is made with flour or cornstarch?” Chicken dishes at a Chinese restaurant are probably “kosher enough” for many people, Chinese food not being known for being smothered in cheese - just skipping over the “not at all kosher” pork and shrimp dishes - unless you are edspellman’s mother, in which case shrimp is apparently kosher)
Kosher is kosher. One summer I went to a kosher Boy Scout camp, so I know some of the rules for that. I’ve never heard anyone who was as selective as your second example claim to be keeping kosher. But I can see how someone who assumes anyone who is Jewish is keeping kosher might get confused.
No, this is people who say “I can’t eat that, I keep kosher” when presented with a group ordering pepperoni on pizza, but who will eat a bacon cheeseburger the following Saturday (unless there is something about being able to eat a bacon cheeseburger on the Sabbath that I’m missing). I’m not confused, some people use kosher as an excuse, some are less strict than others (see all the pork and shellfish examples above from Jewish people) and some are very strict.
Unlike you, I’ve always let people tell me what they mean by kosher (or halal, or vegetarian, or gluten free, or “I’m allergic to nuts” - you haven’t had fun until you’ve fed a kosher Jew, a celiac, someone with kidney disease, a vegan, someone lactose intolerant, and someone avoiding everything on the FODMAP chart at the same meal - I did it fairly regularly for a few years), if they keep it. I’ll assume kosher means that they won’t eat pork, shellfish, meat and cheese in the same dish and I should clear any other menu items with them to avoid misunderstanding, and if they are so strict they won’t eat out of my kitchen, they’ll decline the invitation to eat. But just because that is what I will default to, doesn’t mean they don’t order the shrimp dish at a Chinese restaurant.
(There are vegetarians who eat chicken, too. I’m not going to define how other people use words to define themselves. If they tell me they are vegetarian, I won’t feed them chicken, but if they then eat chicken in front of me, I’m not about to blurt out “You told me you were vegetarian!” I have learned that some people prefer to label themselves as something they, strictly speaking, are not, for whatever reason. And the discussions I’ve had with people about it have ranged from “its just easier” to “I like bacon.” )
First of all, it’s unusual, but not ‘abnormal’, since, as others have stated, chinese restaurants today exist almost everywhere you go in the US. That said, having lived in several different places in the US, and having traveled quite a bit, there is quite a different culture with regards to trying new things in some parts of the country. I was born in Brooklyn, and have lived much of my life in the suburbs of NYC, and I’ve noticed that people in this area tend to be a lot more adventurous with regards to trying new cuisines and restaurants. On the other hand, when I lived in Ohio, it was like pulling teeth to get most people to try anything new. I once brought Dim Sum to share among my co-workers, and a couple of people who had never heard of dim sum refused to try it because “it looked too Chinese”, whatever that means. For god’s sake, it’s just dumplings.
I remember one time they had opened an Indian restaurant nearby, and I invited a bunch of people to come try it with me. Two people said yes. I found out later that both of them were, like me, transplanted from the North East.
I understand totally that children are afraid to try new foods, and I expect it to be difficult to get an 8-year-old to taste something that they don’t recognize. I have a nephew who has tons of food allergies, so I totally understand why he’s shy about trying new foods. But there’s no good excuse for that behavior in a healthy adult.
Not true – I was raised reformed Jewish and I’ve known people who are conservative and people who are orthodox. The rules vary by what people decide to do and not do, how individual rabbis interpret the laws, and so on. When I was in grade school, my best friend came from a conservative family, but his parents only insisted that kosher be kept within their home. So he could eat over at my house. Then there were some of my orthodox neighbors who don’t actually trust the kosher labels on most foods. I helped run a barbecue at a place where I go where we had to have separate barbecues, and utensils and someone who isn’t Jewish could not prepare their food. Everything had to be kept completely separate.
And my mom was in a nursing home that was run by orthodox Jewish people (it wasn’t officially a ‘Jewish’ Nursing home, but still…). I used to bring my mom chinese food, etc. and she had a mini fridge there. Every Passover, some volunteers from local synagogues. would (without telling the residents) remove all the food in their fridge and discard it, even if it were completely fresh (pissed me off that I’d buy her all this food she liked, and someone would just take it from her and throw it away).
And btw, I live in an area that has a large population of orthodox Jews, as well as Chassidim. The Chassidim probably would not partake of it, but we do have kosher chinese restaurants, kosher sushi, etc.
That’s actually about the same for me. Might even have been between sophomore and junior year, when I started working at a local coffeehouse in the summer. Bagels just didn’t really exist in my neighborhood in Chicago when I was growing up (80s and early 90s).
Similarly, my first chicken wing experience was freshman year of college.
Heck, even deep dish pizza I didn’t eat until I was a teenager, and, like I said, I grew up in Chicago proper. We just ate the local style of thin crust pizza. And my first “deep dish” was a newer variant called stuffed pizza (Giordano’s) and not standard, non-stuffed deep dish (a la Uno’s, Geno’s East, Malnati’s). That also waited until college before I had any.
Chinese food, though, we had growing up. Sunday when my mom didn’t feel like cooking, it was either KFC/Church’s/Popeye’s or take out Chinese.
I can understand a family that never (literally, or once a year) goes out to eat at all. But I can’t imagine someone who never eats out of their home at all. Were they never invited to friends’ houses? Did a group of co-workers never ask “Hey, we’re going out for lunch, want to come?”?
As for the kosher question, I’ve learned to ask the question that I actually need answered. I won’t ask “Are you Jewish?” or “Are you Hindu?” or whatever, when planning a menu, because I’ve known Jews who eat shellfish, Muslims who eat pork, and Hindus who eat beef. Maybe they view those as cultural identifiers and aren’t particularly devout, maybe their particular sect or region has different rules than usual, whatever, it’s not my business. Instead, when I’m inviting someone for a meal, I start by asking if they have any food restrictions (which could also mean celiac, lactose intolerant, allergies, diabetes, or any of the various shades of vegetarian), and then if I’m unsure about a particular food, I’ll ask “Is X OK?”.
Odd for you to be promoting peer pressure and forced conformity. The right and proper resonse to anyone trying to force you to do something that you don’t want to do is to tell them to go fuck themselves and possibly cut off contact with them forever.
That would be a rude and ignorant response. And might get you fired from your job if done when at a business dinner with a client. In my household, it would certainly get you struck from future guest lists involving food - even if you were the partner of one of my children. I don’t tolerate that sort of rude behavior.
“I don’t like that” makes adults sound like picky spoiled children - and the only excuse for such a response in adults is if you are autistic and haven’t figured out how to function in society. We haven’t let our kids say “I don’t like that” when presented with food since they were in single digits - and their friends who displayed that behavior at our dinner table never ate dinner with us a second time (and only a few ever did, most people raise their kids with manners). The correct response to someone who doesn’t eat something is to ignore it. The correct response to not eating something is to say nothing. (If someone says “you aren’t eating your brussel sprouts” you can respond with “I’ve never been fond of brussel sprouts.” But they shouldn’t ask and you should absolutely not volunteer.)
Unfortunately, people need to overshare their feelings and opinions and bully others into sharing their feelings and opinions, or guilt them into conforming to their standards. And even adults do it. So adults trying to keep things civil often tell white lies - which is more polite than starting an argument over dinner over what kosher is or calling out someone who doesn’t eat meat and does eat fish for “not being a real vegetarian.” Or looking at a dinner that has been cooked by your hostess and saying “I don’t like it.”
There are polite ways to have the same conversation, but it doesn’t involve judging. It involves asking to be educated. “I thought vegetarians don’t eat fish?” Which will likely get you some version of “well, I’m actually a pescatarian, but a lot of people don’t know what that is, so I just say vegetarian cause its easier.” I have a good friend who is a lifelong vegetarian with one exception. Strict as in it she won’t eat a lot of kinds of candy because of the gelatin or cheese of unknown origin due to the possible animal origin of rennet. But she will eat fish, only at the Angry Trout and only when sitting over Lake Superior. She has some she-knows-its-bullshit explanation for this, but the truth is that the trout at the Angry Trout is really good and its the best off the trail meal in Grand Marais and its a favorite restaurant of a lot of people she goes up North with.
I grew up with the “eat what’s in front of you” ethic, but as a host, it’s rude to force people to eat food. Talk about pot kettle black. I would never force someone to eat something they don’t like at my house. Never. As a host, I always ask y guests if they have any food aversions or dietary restrictions before whipping up a meal. It’s my job as a host to make my guests feel welcome.
I had a coworker who from her personal experience thought all Chinese restaurants were takeout and didn’t know there was such a thing as fine Chinese dining.
(Reminder to self: Make reservations for Peter Chang’s for Christmas)
True, although I think I’d add a third dimension for parental daringness with regard to food. People growing up in an area with lots of interesting restaurants can still be remarkably sheltered in terms of ethnic food exposure if their parents are unadventurous. My niece and nephew come to mind- they have grown up in Austin in this century, and are still kind of sheltered food-wise, because their parents are profoundly weird and unadventurous when it comes to food. (they’re the ones who vacationed in Italy and complained about the food!).
Yep, that would be rude. But as I said, the proper thing for guests and for host to do is to not say anything at all. And when presented with a pushy host, the proper thing to do is to continue to repeat “no thank you.”
I have never met a host who has forced anyone to eat anything. I’ve met pushy food people - who want you to try something despite lack of preference or dietary restrictions, pushing beyond what is polite, but I have never seen anyone force fed at a dinner party (scratch that, it wasn’t a dinner party, but I did in college once watch a bunch of guys force beer down an already drunk girls throat). If you have, you’ve been to some far more dom/sub dinner parties than I have. But I’ve also seen people announce to the table “I don’t like that” or “I can’t eat that, and there isn’t anything here that I like or can eat” - that is also beyond polite.
(I had a ex-sister in law who had an arm long list of dietary restrictions, and when you tried to meet every one of them (vegan, no tomatoes or citrus, no wheat or other gluten containing grains, no soy and kosher - it was fifteen years ago she and my brother in law divorced - the list was longer, but I’ve forgotten some of it), she would complain that she didn’t like what you had made her - “all anyone ever feeds me is salads” I baked her a wedding cake that she could eat at she had the class to tell me it was tasteless…no kidding - you try making a cake that tastes like something without wheat, milk or eggs. She’s the reason I have zero tolerance for “I don’t like that.”)
My former boss (who generally doesn’t eat beef) was stressing about being invited to a high end formal meal with a new friend of her husband. I told her to get super intense about the dinner conversation and when the next course is served (and she didn’t touch her meat), reply: “Oh, I’m so sorry, I was just so intrigued in what everyone had to say!”. Fortunately, they didn’t serve beef and she could save that excuse another time!
My parents never ate in a Chinese restaurant, or a deli, or Italian restaurant. My friend will not eat Chinese food because she doesn’t like it. Daddy didn’t like rice or garlic. My parents mostly grew what they ate except the meat.
Fortunately, they didn’t serve beef and she could save that excuse another time!