# Is it OK for nations to use car bombs to kill opponents? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192 "2004-09-26T19:46:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/1 "2004-09-26T19:46:44Z")
[Car bomb kills Hamas operative in Syria - Israel claims responsibility; Hamas vows revenge](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6102130/) Not that it’s particularly concerned about world opinion at this point, but using _car bombs_ to kill opponents? How are you going maintain the moral upper hand when you do stuff like that? > [@](#): > > DAMASCUS, Syria - A car bomb killed an operative of the Palestinian militant group Hamas as he turned the ignition Sunday, and Israeli security officials acknowledged that the Jewish state was involved. > > Sunday’s killing was the first by Israel of a Hamas member on Syrian soil and came after weeks of Israeli warnings that members of the Islamic militant group would not be safe anywhere. > > Police at the scene of al-Zahraa district explosion were seen retrieving pieces of the body of Izz Eldine Subhi Sheik Khalil. The car exploded outside his home at 10:45 a.m. when he tried to start it, Hamas officials said. > > In Israel, the government issued no statement, but security officials acknowledged Israeli involvement in the killing. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/2 "2004-09-26T20:03:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Not that it’s particularly concerned about world opinion at this point, but using car bombs to kill opponents? How are you going maintain the moral upper hand when you do stuff like that? How is a bomb in a car any different morally from the same bomb dropped from an aircraft or the same bomb on the end of a missile? I don’t see delivery systems to be a matter of morality. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/3 "2004-09-26T20:05:27Z")
Actually, come to think of it, putting a bomb in the guys car is somewhat more precise and discriminate than trying to drop it on his house from an airplane would be. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/4 "2004-09-26T20:08:17Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > How is a bomb in a car any different morally from the same bomb dropped from an aircraft or the same bomb on the end of a missile? I don’t see delivery systems to be a matter of morality. So Hamas and others using Suicide Bombers doesn’t have a negative moral dimension? It’s just a “delivery system”? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/5 "2004-09-26T20:12:13Z")
> [@astro](#): > > So Hamas and others using Suicide Bombers doesn’t have a negative moral dimension? It’s just a “delivery system”? Unless you can suggest a reason why it does? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/6 "2004-09-26T20:12:26Z")
> [@astro](#): > > So Hamas and others using Suicide Bombers doesn’t have a negative moral dimension? It’s just a “delivery system”? Yes, because of who they target. Intentionally killing random civilians is morrally wrong regardless if it is a car bomb or fighter jet. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/7 "2004-09-26T20:16:00Z")
Exactly. If the Palestinians used suicide bombers to attack Israeli military assets, they’d be on much firmer moral grounds. Instead, they send them into pizza parlors to kill as many innocent men, women, and children as they can. They’d be just as morally wrong if they intentionally targeted pizza parlors with F-16 strikes, if they had F-16’s. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/8 "2004-09-26T20:17:10Z")
As a good example, no one considered Japan’s Kamikaze attacks as morally wrong - just a sign of desperation. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/9 "2004-09-26T20:22:03Z")
the title of this thread asks “is it ok to use car bombs to kill **opponents** ” maybe if you re-named the thread to say “is it ok to use car bombs to kill **terrorists** ” you wouldnt have to ask. If we find Osama B. Laden in a cave in Afghanistan, would you ask “is it okay to kill him” with a car bomb ? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/10 "2004-09-26T20:25:13Z")
The OP presupposes that killing the people in question is ok, but just seems to be questionning the means as morally dubious. Which seems the wrong way to be looking at it to me. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/11 "2004-09-26T20:28:16Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Exactly. If the Palestinians used suicide bombers to attack Israeli military assets, they’d be on much firmer moral grounds. Instead, they send them into pizza parlors to kill as many innocent men, women, and children as they can. They’d be just as morally wrong if they intentionally targeted pizza parlors with F-16 strikes, if they had F-16’s. Well if we’re discussing the morality of real world targeting objectives, and not the delivery systems, IIRC there are often significant bystander casualities when Israel uses a helicopter gunship or something similar to blow away a Hamas operative in crowded residential areas. Is this sloppy cost/benefit targeting calculus that tacitly accepts significant civilian casualities, significantly more “moral” than the suicide bombers exclusively civilian targets? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/12 "2004-09-26T20:38:04Z")
> [@astro](#): > > there are often significant bystander casualities when Israel uses a helicopter gunship to blow away a Hamas operative in crowded residential areas. Is this sloppy cost/benefit targeting calculus that tacitly accepts significant civilian casualities, significantly more “moral” than the suicide bombers exclusively civilian targets? are you aware of what you just said? Your example compares a helicopter killing a **known terrorist with blood on his hands** (who happens to be hiding among civilians, and who are not intentionally targetted ), versus a terrorist murdering children at a pizza parlor who are the ONLY targets he is aiming for. let’s see–by your logic, we should never have gone to Afghansitan to hunt OBL, because we “tacitly accept” collateral damage . But OBL is perfectly entitled to use suicide bombers at “exclusively civilian targets” . HuH? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/13 "2004-09-26T20:42:51Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Actually, come to think of it, putting a bomb in the guys car is somewhat more precise and discriminate than trying to drop it on his house from an airplane would be. Yes – but it’s still a weapon that could harm innocent bystanders. Or somebody who is not a terrorist at all but just, for some reason, happens to get into the terrorist’s car at the wrong moment. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/14 "2004-09-26T20:48:14Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > are you aware of what you just said? > Your example compares a helicopter killing a **known terrorist with blood on his hands** (who happens to be hiding among civilians, and who are not intentionally targetted ), versus a terrorist murdering children at a pizza parlor who are the ONLY targets he is aiming for. > let’s see–by your logic, we should never have gone to Afghansitan to hunt OBL, because we “tacitly accept” collateral damage . But OBL is perfectly entitled to use suicide bombers at “exclusively civilian targets” . > > HuH? I’m not asking about the effectiveness of tactics. An army will usually kill their opponents when and where they can, given the opportunity to do so. I’m asking about the _relative morality_ of the specific targeting of civilians vs the killing of an opponents in situations where civilian bystander casualites are a near certainity. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/15 "2004-09-26T20:50:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes – but it’s still a weapon that could harm innocent bystanders. Or somebody who is not a terrorist at all but just, for some reason, happens to get into the terrorist’s car at the wrong moment. Of course. However the OP is (apparantly) suggesting that it this method of delivery is somehow morally ‘wrong’ while presumably dropping the bomb from a plane would be ok. Whether the use of the actual weapon or the killing itself is morally justifiable is probably a different discussion to the one **astro** appeared to want to start here. ---
**Author:** ![kezami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb8c5e/32.png) [@kezami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kezami)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/16 "2004-09-26T20:51:16Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Not that it’s particularly concerned about world opinion at this point, but using _car bombs_ to kill opponents? How are you going maintain the moral upper hand when you do stuff like that? Why do think Israel would be particularly interested in maintaining the moral upper hand in a targeted bombing such as this, if in fact it was officially confirmed to be invoved, which it hasn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/17 "2004-09-26T20:51:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Whether the use of the actual weapon or the killing itself is morally justifiable is probably a different discussion to the one astro appeared to want to start here. > [@](#): > > I’m asking about the relative morality of the specific targeting of civilians vs the killing of an opponents in situations where civilian bystander casualites are a near certainity. Ok, maybe it isn’t… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/18 "2004-09-26T20:53:26Z")
> [@kezami](#): > > Why do think Israel would be particularly interested in maintaining the moral upper hand in a targeted bombing such as this, if in fact it was officially confirmed to be invoved, which it hasn’t? Read the OP – Israel has **claimed responsibility** for the car-bombing. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/19 "2004-09-26T20:55:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes – but it’s still a weapon that could harm innocent bystanders. Or somebody who is not a terrorist at all but just, for some reason, happens to get into the terrorist’s car at the wrong moment. The war against terror is just that–a war.Not a police procedure where you have to get a search warrant signed by a judge before you enter Osama BLaden’s cave or Saddam’s spider hole And in war, unfortunately, innocent people get killed along with the legitimate targets. We call it “collateral damage” . It’s a blood-soaked tragedy when an innocent child is killed because he is sitting in the car next to his father who is a terrorist. But Sept 11 was a blood-soaked tragedy too. And none of the innocent victims were sitting next to terrorists. Let’s keep perspective here.Some concepts really are so simple that they can be reduced to black and white, good and evil, with no middle ground. Terrorists are evil, and we are the good guys . ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/20 "2004-09-26T20:57:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s keep perspective here.Some concepts really are so simple that they can be reduced to black and white, good and evil, with no middle ground. Terrorists are evil, and we are the good guys Is that you George? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192.md?page=2)