# Is it OK for nations to use car bombs to kill opponents? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192 "2004-09-26T19:46:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/81 "2004-09-27T17:30:44Z")
Sure you don’t want to change your name to Sevastopol88? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/82 "2004-09-27T17:31:25Z")
How large of an explosive charge do you need to kill somebody like this? I recall the guy that the Israelis killed by putting a bomb in his cellphone…that was a neat job! Seems to me that a device of this type could be put in a car very easily…perhaps if you are a terrorist, you won’t want to accept a free oil change offer! Now comes the question: Hamas is known for retaliation…what sort of atrocity do you think they will respond with? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/83 "2004-09-27T17:51:56Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Now comes the question: Hamas is known for retaliation…what sort of atrocity do you think they will respond with? :eek: I know what I would do! Order a pizza with everything . . . no, make that two pizzas with everything! . . . delivered to Ariel Sharon’s house at three in the morning! That’ll show 'em! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/84 "2004-09-27T18:00:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Look, you noted yourself that withdrawal or no withdrawal, Hamas will continue its attempts to destroy Israel. In which case, they’re a major impediment to peace in the Middle East and should be eliminated sooner or later. Why not sooner? For one thing, because it is impossible. Targetted assassinations of Hamas leaders will only bring Hamas more recruits – and they’ve already figured out (see the Wikipedia article) that they can keep their leaders safer by keeping their identities secret. Withdrawal of Israel from the Territories might not change Hamas’ agenda, but it would, eventually, render Hamas politically impotent within Palestine. Most Palestinians would be satisfied with independence and want to get on with building something like a normal life, and would have no time, any more, for all that insane radical crap. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/85 "2004-09-27T18:12:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > For one thing, because it is impossible. Targetted assassinations of Hamas leaders will only bring Hamas more recruits – and they’ve already figured out (see the Wikipedia article) that they can keep their leaders safer by keeping their identities secret. And the fact that hamas’s leafders are now kept secret has severely hurt their operational capabilities. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if recruitment is down lately, due to the lack of charismatic leaders. People claim to follow martyrs, but that’s not really true; what they actualy do is follow winners. So long as Hamas was succeeding in hurting Israeli targets it could count on recruits hopping on the bandwagon, Now that it’s on the defensive and not showing any real results, it’s much less attractive. Face it: lots of underground movements and secret socirties throughou history have been destroyed. Occasionally it was done by removing their cause of action; most often, it was by killing the leaders. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Withdrawal of Israel from the Territories might not change Hamas’ agenda, but it would, eventually, render Hamas politically impotent within Palestine. Most Palestinians would be satisfied with independence and want to get on with building something like a normal life, and would have no time, any more, for all that insane radical crap. That’s a very optomistic prediction. How sure are you it would hapen that way? Organizations like Hamas tend to be self perpetuating, constantly causing more conflict in order to survive. As long as Israel continues to exist in any form many Palestinians will feel they have a grievences against it, and will vent them via people like Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/86 "2004-09-27T18:34:03Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > That quibble aside, being as [genocide] is on the cards thanks to Sharon’s latest initiatives, He’s trying to withdraw from Gaza and dismantle the settlements there. How is that even remotely genocidal? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/87 "2004-09-27T21:10:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Withdrawal of Israel from the Territories might not change Hamas’ agenda, but it would, eventually, render Hamas politically impotent within Palestine. Most Palestinians would be satisfied with independence and want to get on with building something like a normal life, and would have no time, any more, for all that insane radical crap. You mean the same ethnic/cultural/whatever group that has produced the Hebron Massacre of 1929, the “Arab Revolt” (mostly against Jewish civilians) of 1936-1939, the _Fedayyin_ of the 1950’s, the PLO in 1964… and all this **before** the 1967 war? I ain’t putting my own neck out on that happening… **they** ’ll have to show that they have really changed their agenda before I am willing to barter all my material assets for a promise of “everlasting peace.” Dani ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/88 "2004-09-28T01:01:58Z")
**Alessan** said: > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by sevastopol > Actually, you’d want to do a lot of preparatory work in NYC if genocide was really the plan. That quibble aside, being as it is on the cards thanks to Sharon’s latest initiatives, I don’t see why we should close off any options at this stage in our search for Middle Eastern peace. > I have no idea what you’re talking about. Care to be a little less opaque? He’s saying that if you want to exterminate all the Jews, you’d have to do a lot of killing in New York as well, because it’s full of Jews. And he thinks that maybe that would be a good thing. Because it’s not just Israel’s policies he hates, it’s the Jews, no matter where they are. At least, that’s what I get from it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/89 "2004-09-28T01:04:51Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > You mean the same ethnic/cultural/whatever group that has produced the Hebron Massacre of 1929, the “Arab Revolt” (mostly against Jewish civilians) of 1936-1939, the _Fedayyin_ of the 1950’s, the PLO in 1964… and all this **before** the 1967 war? I ain’t putting my own neck out on that happening… **they** ’ll have to show that they have really changed their agenda before I am willing to barter all my material assets for a promise of “everlasting peace.” > > Dani What “material assets” would you be “bartering”? Do you own property in the Territories? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/90 "2004-09-28T02:37:42Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Sure you don’t want to change your name to Sevastopol88? I cannot tell you how much I hate those fucking Nazis. Bring one into a conversation or thread of any sort and I am out of there, no matter what. I tell you it is a source of wonderment to me about a place like this that there is no goddam middle. From the land of the free, no one seems able to speak freely about fairly obvious public deceptions in the Is/US relationship that are carried on daily. Often I wonder about this. Is it a politeness thing? Is there a culture there of always portraying Jewish people in a sympathetic light? Who knows. No one that is, except racist extremists, so try a little emperor-has-no-clothes speech and watch. Polite company goes all quiet and shuts down. And the normal muscular antagonists are curled up in the den. Why on earth there is a list of forbidden topics beats me. Anyway… ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/91 "2004-09-28T02:45:48Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > He’s trying to withdraw from Gaza and dismantle the settlements there. How is that even remotely genocidal? There are several people more [erudite than I on the subject](http://www.juancole.com/) > [@](#): > > **Friday, September 17, 2004** > Sharon Repudiates the Road Map > > Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in remarks on Wednesday repudiated the American-sponsored “road map” to a peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Sharon insists on acting unilaterally, intends to occupy the Palestinian population indefinitely, and intends to permanently incorporate much of the West Bank, conquered in 1967, into Israel, while leaving the Palestinian population stateless. They lack so much as a passport or a country, many of their children are hungry, unemployment is astronomical, and their lives are ruined by a dense network of Israeli roads and checkpoints that make it difficult even just to go to the hospital. > > I am sure that most Americans are not even aware that Palestinians live under Israeli military occupation and that every day Palestinian territory shrinks as it is stolen by fanatical Israeli colonists. These fanatics do not differ in any obvious way from the French colonists in Algeria, which the French also proclaimed “French soil.” But colonialism is just another word for grand larceny. (Most Americans would be appalled if the United States suddenly chased all the Iraqis out of Baghdad and brought in Americans to permanently take over their apartments and other property, instead. But that is an exact analogy for how the Israelis are behaving.) > > …But Israel isn’t giving the Palestinians Israeli passports. It just wants their land, not them, and sets things up to try to force the Palestinians out of their homeland. It is an ongoing injustice, with Israeli colonization creeping forward. Even if Sharon does remove the small number (8000) of Israeli colonists from Gaza, he intends to resettle them in the West Bank, which is nicer real estate… It’s a major story. Yet what did you hear of it in the US press? Israeli apologists by and large. Oh what brave world we live in. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/92 "2004-09-28T02:46:42Z")
Care to speak more clearly? That preceding post isn’t very coherent at all, full as it is of metaphors and codespeak of some sort. Sevastopol88, people are allowed to speak freely about whatever they desire: this IS the land of the free. Nobody is stopping you from saying whatever you want about those damn barbaric Jews and how they oppress the peace-loving, civilized Arabs in the Middle East. If polite company doesn’t want to have anything to do with you, it’s because they generally don’t like to talk to someone who advocates genocide. Remember that post a while back about setting off nukes in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? I do. Your ideology is clear; nobody is limiting your freedom of speech. I’d wager that there are hundreds preaching your message all over this country (plenty of them are at college campuses, by the way.) Nobody’s arresting them. Compare that to the fine nations of your Arab friends where people are tortured and killed for voicing dissent. Now tell me who lives in the land of the free and who doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/93 "2004-09-28T02:49:49Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **Alessan** said: > > He’s saying that if you want to exterminate all the Jews, you’d have to do a lot of killing in New York as well, because it’s full of Jews. And he thinks that maybe that would be a good thing. Because it’s not just Israel’s policies he hates, it’s the Jews, no matter where they are. > > At least, that’s what I get from it. Not bad **Sam** , Half right. Still some work to do on your reading comprehension. Strike - "_And he thinks that maybe that would be a good thing. Because it’s not just Israel’s policies he hates, it’s the Jews, no matter where they are."_ - from your exegesis and you’re home. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/94 "2004-09-28T03:49:13Z")
Hey, you’re the one who took the discussion from Israel’s policies to killing Jews in New York. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/95 "2004-09-28T03:55:03Z")
Actually it was **Alessan**. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/96 "2004-09-28T04:24:08Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > If polite company doesn’t want to have anything to do with you, it’s because they generally don’t like to talk to someone who advocates genocide. I think people who live in glass houses shouldn’t be calling the kettle black, dude. Here’s you from post #53, this thread, talking about Palestinians: “_Ethnic cleansing? YES, for God’s sake. Just get it over with and stick them in Jordan and Egypt where they came from in the first place_.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/97 "2004-09-28T04:39:14Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Actually it was **Alessan**. Excuse me? At what point did I mention New York? At what point did I mention anri-semitism? Your skating very close to libel here, my faux-Slavic friend. Inidentally, do you consider the Holocause genocide? Just a question of semantics. After all, Hitler didn’t kill any Jews in New York. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/98 "2004-09-28T04:46:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Through judicious and carefully targeted use of hyperbole. How is this not a totally flippant and nonsensical response to **sevastopol** ’s question? How **could** Damascus be razed without targeting civilians? And to kill millions of people to avenge the death of Ariel Sharon? That is a truly SICK idea. When did you become such a **monster**? I expected better of you in the past but you have apparently caught that disease common in Israel today, that the only good Arab is a dead Arab, and you are now promoting mass killings. Great. Vast crimes against humanity, all to support your political beliefs. I’m truly shocked. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/99 "2004-09-28T04:55:37Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > How is this not a totally flippant and nonsensical response to **sevastopol** ’s question? How **could** Damascus be razed without targeting civilians? And to kill millions of people to avenge the death of Ariel Sharon? That is a truly SICK idea. When did you become such a **monster**? I expected better of you in the past but you have apparently caught that disease common in Israel today, that the only good Arab is a dead Arab, and you are now promoting mass killings. Great. Vast crimes against humanity, all to support your political beliefs. I’m truly shocked. Are you whooshing me? I was _not_ advocating the destruction of Damascus. I was just saying that killing a head of state would lead to full-scale war, which Israel would probably win. Have I at any point in this thread - on this BOARD - express racist or genocidal attitudes towards Arabs? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192/100 "2004-09-28T06:00:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What “material assets” would you be “bartering”? Do you own property in the Territories? “I” refered to “If I were representing Israel” - not me personally. And by “assets” I don’t mean that “I” (Israel) owns them, but rather that Israel **is** holding on to the territories as bargaining chips - and will not (or, at least IMHO should not) bargain them for mere “promises” of some kind of cease-fire (which falls far short of a peace treaty) but only for a full-fledged recognition of Israel’s right to existence, as part of an agreement that includes verifiable steps along the way as well as fall-back clauses for cases of non-compliance by the Palestinian side. Sorry to say, but this is a stance borne of seeing the Palestinains shoot themselves (and us in the process) in the foot time and time again in terms of reliability. Not that I am claiming that Israel is always 100% reliable - but I still think I can say Israel has a **much** better track-record on the issue of sticking to agreements, and to non-civilian targets, than the Palestinans do! Short and simple, right now I don’t trust the word of any Palestinain leader further than I can throw him. Give me a way of achieving a real, verifiable peace agreement with the Palestinian leaders and whoever may succeed them by whatever means, and I agree that Israel should then - **but only then!** - quit the occupied territories, effectively allowing the Palestinians to create a state there. But right now I’m too damned scared of what will happen the day after to be happy with the prospect. Dani [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-for-nations-to-use-car-bombs-to-kill-opponents/266192.md?page=6)