# Is it OK to be homophobic ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086 "2002-04-05T22:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/81 "2002-04-06T15:32:48Z")
I say we should outlaw non-consensual masturbation.😉 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/82 "2002-04-06T15:38:52Z")
So, in cases of non-consensual masturbation, which person goes blind? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/83 "2002-04-06T16:24:27Z")
POWER: Welcome, Bill O’Reilly! We know its you… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/84 "2002-04-06T16:26:58Z")
Well, it happens that my SO and I had a formal religious commitment service, have been living together and owning or renting homes in neighborhoods where we feel comfortable for the 27 years since, engage in small PDAs (no, not Palm Pilots, public displays of affection) like holding hands when we darn well feel like it, kissing each other at the Peace during church service, resting our arms on each other’s shoulders when something we know is particularly moving to the other happens (even during sermons in church), all that sort of thing. It’s fortunate for us that we happen to be a heterosexual couple; if we were both of the same sex, we would, according to the concepts expressed by some people in this thread, be flaunting our sexuality. (How come the fact that one is male and the other female means that we’re not?) And, by the way, the Ninth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution – remember it? The one that says that there’s “other rights” not listed in the preceding eight which are also protected? The SCOTUS has been very loath to identify things as being Ninth Amendment rights, but it has done it from time to time, and one of the things it has identified is the right to marry, in the ironically named _Loving v. Virginia_. (Obviously, this was a Fourteenth Amendment case, but the “right of a U.S. citizen” protected was found in the Ninth as the right to marry, regardless of the fact that the Lovings were of different races. (The Fourteenth Amendment’s prohibition of the denial of equal protection on the basis of race also entered into the decision. But it was explicit in defining a right to marry, not just a right to marry someone of a different color.) I can respect someone who has religious or social grounds for believing homosexual activity to be improper – but I feel offended by anyone who believes that such grounds give him some special right to say what persons who choose to live their lives with someone of the same sex may or may not do. Laws governing sexual expression in public are probably valid on a “public decency” standard – it’s not homophobic to say that you don’t want to see two people boinking in the public park, regardless of what genitalia each is using for the activity. But such non-orientation-specific regulations are the sole grounds on which I’d see impeding personal rights. There _is_ an argument that a heterosexual marriage promotes “public policy” in a way that a homosexual one does not. However, I can see numerous flaws in that proposition, founded largely on the myth of gay people as promiscuous people with no personal commitments. And it’s been my experience that that describes a far greater number of heterosexual people than gays. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/85 "2002-04-06T19:01:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\* > …Now whether that’s right and whether that’s fair is a separate question. Andygirl makes an instinctively powerful case in describing her own relationship and how she would like it to be legitimized in the eyes of society. However, there may be an equally valid argument out there that society may have an interest in defining marriage as an institution with certain characteristics that unfortunately do not meet her wishes. I’m not necessarily making that argument here, but pointing out that the argument could be made. > \*\* You are making some rather interesting arguments in this tread, without really taking the step of stating what **you** believe. So let me ask you point blank; is it ok for the hetero folk to have their relationships recognized by the state but not the same sex couples? Do you think that it is fair and just that a couple (by virtue only of being comprised of a man/woman combo) enjoy all of the validation of society, while other loving couples do not? While we are at it, spare me the “if we recognize gay couples, why not triads and people that want to marry their sisters” shtick. I will state again my opinion on this matter: Denying a couple full access to the institution of society by virtue of their sexuality alone is no different than doing so because of the color of their skin, their religion or their gender ---
**Author:** ![HairyPotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@HairyPotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HairyPotter)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/86 "2002-04-06T21:49:29Z")
ho·mo·pho·bi·a Pronunciation Key (hm-fb-) n. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. Behavior based on such a feeling. Irrational fear and prejudice are poison to the spirit, as well as socially dangerous as hell. Such feelings have caused and do cause, persecution, murder, genocide, war, etc. It not only isn’t “OK” to be homophobic, it is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/87 "2002-04-06T22:15:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by POWER\_station \* > \*\* > > I doesn’t agree in this assumption. \*\* You know, I’ve never approved of the lifestyles of those who mangle the English language. ---
**Author:** ![Merhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Merhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/88 "2002-04-06T22:40:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\* > > :: Notes one (1) hug from **Esprix** :: > > :: Checks **Esprix** ’s name of the list of “People who’ll get what’s coming to 'em after my intevitable rise to power” :: > > :: notes disapprovingly the vast lack of hugs from anyone else :: > > :: starts adding names to same list :: \*\* {{{{{{Fenris}}}}}} Please bear in mnd that although I have lust in my heart (I **adore** your name, BTW), those hugs are meant in only the most manly way because I’d hate to gross anyone out 😉 Mike, the OMG, FAT fag 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/89 "2002-04-06T23:49:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > You are making some rather interesting arguments in this tread, without really taking the step of stating what **you** believe. So let me ask you point blank; is it ok for the hetero folk to have their relationships recognized by the state but not the same sex couples? Do you think that it is fair and just that a couple (by virtue only of being comprised of a man/woman combo) enjoy all of the validation of society, while other loving couples do not? I still don’t have time to go into detail and address all the interesting points made by other posters. I thought I’d check in briefly, though, and speak to what appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of my purpose here–and what I see as the purpose of this thread. I haven’t necessarily made up my mind on these issues. There’s no point in demanding that I submit to the litmus test of what **I** believe, since (1) I could honestly be fundamentally undecided on these issues; (2) if I am decided and my answer is “incorrect” from your perspective, I would only be providing you with fodder for ad hominem attacks (OK, Fenris wasn’t accusing POWER\_station of being a closet gay, but he was insinuating that he was emotionally weak on this issue–for what reason, I do not know); and (3) I would be providing you with an excuse to be intellectually lazy in that most posters would fall back on attacking _me_ rather the interesting arguments I am presenting here. (I’m also trying to be careful with my spelling and grammar, since JonScribe seems to believe that a misplaced apostrophe takes away one’s right to an opinion.) This isn’t all for the sake of being coy. I really am interested in discussing and, if possible, going some way toward resolving what I see as the basic issue in this thread: can one legitimately oppose, question, or remain undecided on issues like gay marriage, or does such a stance ipso facto make one a bigot? I argue for the former position, which is all you need to know for the purposes of this thread. > [@](#): > > While we are at it, spare me the “if we recognize gay couples, why not triads and people that want to marry their sisters” shtick. Can you provide a legitimate argument against this position, aside from a personal desire to be spared this “shtick”? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/90 "2002-04-06T23:56:20Z")
If it helps, HairyPotter, think of it this way. If you and I were lawyers and arguing on opposite sides of a murder trial, would it do you any good to turn around and say, “Those are very interesting arguments, Counsel, but let me ask you: do **you** think the defendant is guilty?” As the judge banged her gavel, I would just smirk and say, “It’s not my job to give an opinion, Counsel, only to argue a case on the facts.” ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/91 "2002-04-06T23:57:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\*If it helps, HairyPotter, think of it this way. If you and I were lawyers and arguing on opposite sides of a murder trial, would it do you any good to turn around and say, “Those are very interesting arguments, Counsel, but let me ask you: do **you** think the defendant is guilty?” As the judge banged her gavel, I would just smirk and say, “It’s not my job to give an opinion, Counsel, only to argue a case on the facts.” \*\* Sorry, that should have been addressed to Binarydrone, not HairyPotter. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/92 "2002-04-07T00:03:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Merhouse \* > \*\*Mike, the OMG, FAT fag 😃 \*\* Hey! You can’t be THE fat fag! I was THE fat fag first! You can, however, be an official assistant fat fag by simply filling out this convenient form and sending me your credit card number. Thank you for your interest in our program. jayjay 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/93 "2002-04-07T00:14:50Z")
I was kind of short in my last post. I do want to log my opinion of “gay marriage”. I quoted that because of the lack of definition on the term. I feel that there **has** to be some formal, official recognition of gay/lesbian couples. There are horror stories out there about one partner being in the hospital, dying. And the other partner not being allowed in to visit… These **are not** just “stories”. They happen. The saddest thing I ever saw was an aquiantance of mine not being allowed to visit his SO who was in the final stages of dying of " complications due to AIDS". Luckily his SO’s family accepted him as a member of the family, and they lied to the hospital saying that he was their adopted son and he got in. But it should not have gone that way. He should have been able to visit without having to lie. And if his in-laws had not accepted him, he would never have been allowed in. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/94 "2002-04-07T06:00:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > \*\* > > You are making some rather interesting arguments in this tread, without really taking the step of stating what **you** believe. So let me ask you point blank; is it ok for the hetero folk to have their relationships recognized by the state but not the same sex couples? Do you think that it is fair and just that a couple (by virtue only of being comprised of a man/woman combo) enjoy all of the validation of society, while other loving couples do not? > > While we are at it, spare me the “if we recognize gay couples, why not triads and people that want to marry their sisters” shtick. > > I will state again my opinion on this matter: Denying a couple full access to the institution of society by virtue of their sexuality alone is no different than doing so because of the color of their skin, their religion or their gender \*\* I say we take the concept here a step further and open up the institution of marraige and the legal benefits and ramifications that come along with it. We should recognize in a legal fashion any relationship of two people of any sex whether they’re having sex or not. I think it would be unfair for same sex couples who have sex with one another, to have more legal rights than same sex or different sex couples that do not have sex with each other. If two people are living together over say x period of time, my feeling is they should be afforded the same rights a married couples if they so desire them. Now, as for the original OP. You can dislike the notion of two people of the same sex having sex and not be homophobic, to me this is kind of obvious, if you were into it, you’d be doing it. We don’t have to like or agree with any behaviour that people may engage in, and it doesn’t mean we’re a bad person because we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/95 "2002-04-07T09:42:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Who\_me? \* > \*\*Well, for me, I really don’t want to see _anybody’s_ sex life first hand… unless I’m involved of course. \*\* I wouldn’t mind if it’s two really attractive lesbians.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/96 "2002-04-07T13:52:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\* > I wouldn’t mind if it’s two really attractive lesbians.😃 \*\* Well, that took longer than I’d expected. For a while there I thought we might make it through this whole thread without objectifying lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![Ned](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Ned](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ned)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/97 "2002-04-07T13:57:23Z")
> [@](#): > > I really am interested in discussing and, if possible, going some way toward resolving what I see as the basic issue in this thread: can one legitimately oppose, question, or remain undecided on issues like gay marriage, or does such a stance ipso facto make one a bigot? I argue for the former position, which is all you need to know for the purposes of this thread. Well, one would have to come up with some legitimate rational that is more than an elaborate justification for homophobia in order to justify their view that they are not a bigot. So far we haven’t heard one. ---
**Author:** ![Merhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Merhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/98 "2002-04-07T14:30:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ned \* > \*\* > > Well, one would have to come up with some legitimate rational that is more than an elaborate justification for homophobia in order to justify their view that they are not a bigot. So far we haven’t heard one. \*\* I dunno, as a gay guy, I thought these two folks kinda summed it up: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Doghouse_ > > \*\*This isn’t all for the sake of being coy. I really am interested in discussing and, if possible, going some way toward resolving what I see as the basic issue in this thread: can one legitimately oppose, question, or remain undecided on issues like gay marriage, or does such a stance ipso facto make one a bigot? I argue for the former position, which is all you need to know for the purposes of this thread. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EasyPhil \*\*\* > > Now, as for the original OP. You can dislike the notion of two people of the same sex having sex and not be homophobic, to me this is kind of obvious, if you were into it, you’d be doing it. We don’t have to like or agree with any behaviour that people may engage in, and it doesn’t mean we’re a bad person because we don’t.\*\* Maybe I’m missing something, but isn’t this similar to differences in religious beliefs? I’m Jewish, so I don’t necessarily “believe” some of the same things as Christians or Buddhists, but that doesn’t make me a Christian- or Buddaphobic, does it? I sure HOPE not. And lest anyone decide that **I** am homophobic, read up a bunch of posts and see that I will be “the assistant fat fag” once I’ve submitted my application. 😃 Mike ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/99 "2002-04-07T18:12:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\* > > Well, that took longer than I’d expected. For a while there I thought we might make it through this whole thread without objectifying lesbians. \*\* One of these days, perhaps. And while we’re dreaming I’d like a pony… ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2002, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/100 "2002-04-07T19:10:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _vanilla wrote:_ > POWER: Welcome, Bill O’Reilly! > We know its you… Now, come on, that’s not quite accurate. O’Reilly’s a egotistical blowhard, but I have heard him endorse the concept of gay adoption more than once (“Better to be in a gay home than in foster care”). He’s also argued against some blatantly anti-gay attitudes. Not that he’s the gay-rights poster boy, or anything… As far as being “homophobic” - as long as they don’t say or _do_ anything unkind, (like endorse discriminatory laws) being homophobic is none of my business. It’s not the thoughts that hurt, it’s the actions. If a “homophobic” is actually fair-minded enough to think “Well, just because I find homosexuality to be unnatural, it doesn’t mean that these gay folks shouldn’t be able to marry” then I don’t see a problem. (I kind of doubt that there are too many of these “fair minded” homophobics out there. But, you never know.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086.md?page=6)