# Is it OK to be homophobic ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086 "2002-04-05T22:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/141 "2002-04-08T19:11:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\*The difference, of course, is that they have the power. You don’t. And in an atmosphere of hatred, it’s not us straight folks who are going to get marginalized or worse. That’s the point. \*\* Actually, in our current system, its the wealthy that have the power. So I’m okay. \*\* > [@](#): > > Ah, you crazy dreamer. As if you’ll get five Supreme Court justices to extend gay rights if the majority of the populace isn’t in favor of it first. \*\* It’s happened before. \*\* > [@](#): > > So here’s the plan: You go around spreading hate and simultaneously giving your avowed enemies an excuse to kick your head in (because you are “evil” and it’s okay to hate evil people) while waiting for the generally old, generally conservative, generally white, totally straight Supremes to bail you out. I’m not saying you won’t get your “victory” some day, but my guess is you’ll have died of old age long before it comes.\*\* Ha. You think I go around “spreading hate” in the real world? I’m the nicest person you would ever meet (unless you’re mean to my beagle). Online, since I don’t know any of you, I can’t say I care much, and am more apt to lose my temper, since from my current perspective, none of you are “real” people. You’re just names on a screen, so why should I care what you think of me? Half the time I’m just being contrarian, because its fun to watch the responses. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/142 "2002-04-08T19:12:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*No, you don’t. All you need are five supreme court justices. Even if public opinion is 99-1 against, that doesn’t matter for a damn thing if you can win in the Court. Do you think that equality will come through a change in the hearts of the generally moronic American masses? Don’t hold your breath. Victory will come through a court order. \*\* I’d rather have those generally moronic masses on my side than the supremes in many cases. Popular opinion is very powerful. And while making laws to protect people is a good thing and should be encouraged, it’s just as- if not more- important to have people on your side. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/143 "2002-04-08T19:12:27Z")
Well, let me walk on stage here and ask **Kirk** how evil I am in his sight. Like him, I believe in a God who loves all men and women, with no reference to sexual orientation, and who calls everyone else to do the same. Like him, I’ve fought battles on that other board for the rights of gay people to be treated like human beings and not subhumans advancing their own agenda. Unlike him, I’ve been involved in a happy heterosexual marriage for 27 years (as of this Friday). And I’ve been woken up to the need to address the rights and needs of individuals through the love of a young man who is the closest thing I’ll ever have to a son. And I sympathize with and have compassion for the pain he feels from the wilfully anti-gay stereotypers and from the ignorant who don’t realize what their views entail in pain for gay people. But, as this board’s motto suggests, the task here is “fighting ignorance,” not fighting the ignorant. And the self-proclaimed-as-Christian men who are quick to condemn homosexual activity as sin are also the ones most convicted by the idea that we are to love _all_ our fellow men. So if I have one thing to say in open-board advice to **Kirk** , it is to swallow your anger and give people time to grow. You needed it; I needed it; and they need it – and you and I both believe in a God who will force them to grow if they’ll only listen. And to the rest of the board, ease off a bit, including on the psychological analyses. The man’s been dumped on – if he’s venting his anger in the wrong place, all he needs is what **MEB** had to say – if you’re gonna criticize (or analyze) another member, take it to the Pit. (And that includes **all** of us, not just **Kirk**.) And, just to steer this back to the OP, **Power station** asked for his views to be analyzed for homophobia, and stated that they were “live and let live” – so long as the gay people “keep it private.” It occurs to me that it might not be a bad idea to explain to him what’s wrong with that stance – something we’ve effectively been hijacked from. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/144 "2002-04-08T19:25:30Z")
I’ve been reading this thread, and I want to know how evil I am. He’s jumping up and down screaming that he absolutely hates people who hate gays because hating is wrong. Hello? Dose of own medicine? Practice what you’re preaching? I’m a straight person, and until the place closed, I used to hang out in a pub that attracted about a 50/50 mix of straight people and gay people. In all the time I went there, I never had a problem with a single person, except for one girl. She hit on me, (she shoved her tongue in my mouth on New Year’s Eve), and when I declined to go home with her, she called me a homophobe who should have the shit kicked out of me until I understood how to treat lesbians. Since I’d been going there for a long time, and I had been hit on before (by guys and girls) and had hit on people (guys, some of whom I later found out were gay), it never occurred to me that anyone would react the way she did to my ‘I’m flattered, but I prefer men.’ My personal orientation is that I am not in any way attracted to women. Kissing a woman is like kissing the back of my hand, I just don’t get turned on by it. I have no problem at all with the women who do get turned on by it. I’m not a fan of lesbian porn, although I do somewhat like gay male porn (because it features my favorite thing in porn - naked men.) I have a fairly high PDA ick-factor regarding straights and gays. I don’t really get icked by seeing hand holding, hugging, and light kisses, but tongue down throat, groping, public sex, that bugs me wether it’s a male/female, female/female or male/male. Sex is a private thing to be engaged in by 2 or more people who consent to being in the area. I don’t wanna see people goin at it on the city bus (and I have.) ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/145 "2002-04-08T19:41:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, in our current system, its the wealthy that have the power. So I’m okay. Right. Because the wealthy are so dedicatedly pro-gay. :rolleyes: I said: > [@](#): > > Ah, you crazy dreamer. As if you’ll get five Supreme Court justices to extend gay rights if the majority of the populace isn’t in favor of it first. To which you reply: > [@](#): > > It’s happened before. Really? When? > [@](#): > > Ha. You think I go around “spreading hate” in the real world? I’m the nicest person you would ever meet (unless you’re mean to my beagle). Surely you realize that the only “you” any of us knows or can respond to is the “you” you choose to present through your computer. With respect, if you choose this forum to exercise your “none too bright angry young man” persona, then you cannot be surprised if we assume you are a none too bright angry young man. > [@](#): > > Online, since I don’t know any of you, I can’t say I care much, and am more apt to lose my temper, since from my current perspective, none of you are “real” people. You’re just names on a screen, so why should I care what you think of me? First, we are each of us just as real as you are. Second, I don’t know why you should care what a group of near-strangers think of you, but judging by the offense you took at being addressed as a female, you apparently do care. Third, I can tell you from experience that while you might assure yourself that you don’t care what we think, this little cyber-world can become a mighty uncomfortable place if people decide you’re just another insincere jerk. > [@](#): > > Half the time I’m just being contrarian, because its fun to watch the responses. A bit of advice: This is not a tendency you want to make a habit of indulging. Yanking people’s chains (a/k/a “being contrarian just to amuse myself watching the responses”) is a form of trolling and as such is frowned upon by The Powers That Be. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/146 "2002-04-08T19:50:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > **Right. Because the wealthy are so dedicatedly pro-gay.** No. Because I’m wealthy. So I’m okay. \*\* > [@](#): > > Really? When? \*\* The Supreme Court has come down against the tide of public opinion on many cases. Thier decisions on school prayer did not sit well with the bulk of the populace at that time (though in retrospect the court has come around to their point of view). The Reihnquist court is not so motivated. But it could happen. > [@](#): > > Surely you realize that the only “you” any of us knows or can respond to is the “you” you choose to present through your computer. Yeah. But I don’t care what you think about me, generally speaking. > [@](#): > > With respect, if you choose this forum to exercise your “none too bright angry young man” persona, then you cannot be surprised if we assume you are a none too bright angry young man. Okay, fine. Take all my positions, and tone them down by about 3000% if you want see where I really stand on things. I’ll admit it. I don’t wear pride shirts, I don’t spit on Baptists, I don’t picket churches. I’m an extremely moderate libertarian on everything but free speech issues, where I’m a radical (say anything, anywhere, anytime, no matter who it offends). I play chess, swim, write a weekly political column for my university paper, and am writing a novel. I’m not a firebrand. But I play one on TV. 😃 Which has now gotten boring, so I’ll stop. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/147 "2002-04-08T19:55:22Z")
A case of a supreme court giving rights to gay people when the majority wasn’t for it would be Vermont in the passage of the Civil Union law, I think. Although I can’t find any statics on what percentage of the population supported what. [http://www.leg.state.vt.us/baker/Final%20CURC%20Report%20for%202002.htm](http://www.leg.state.vt.us/baker/Final%20CURC%20Report%20for%202002.htm) is a nice link that provides a legislative summation of the aftermath of the law- it’s pretty interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/148 "2002-04-08T19:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > **I’ve been reading this thread, and I want to know how evil I am.** You’re a four. But I won’t tell you what the scale is. 😃 > [@](#): > > He’s jumping up and down screaming that he absolutely hates people who hate gays because hating is wrong. No, what I was saying is I hate those who discriminate against other people, or who push the government to. Or thats what I shoulda been saying. I dunno, I haven’t been paying much attention. Has anyone been taking notes? \*\* > [@](#): > > I don’t really get icked by seeing hand holding, hugging, and light kisses, but tongue down throat, groping, public sex, that bugs me wether it’s a male/female, female/female or male/male.\*\* Yes, anything above a kiss should be kept in private. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/149 "2002-04-08T20:03:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **Well, let me walk on stage here and ask Kirk how evil I am in his sight.** Hmmm… You’re a six, but most of it by association. \*\* > [@](#): > > Unlike him, I’ve been involved in a happy heterosexual marriage for 27 years (as of this Friday).\*\* Congratulations. Which anniversary is that? Balsa wood? \*\* > [@](#): > > But, as this board’s motto suggests, the task here is “fighting ignorance,” not fighting the ignorant. \*\* But the best thing about fighting the ignorant is that they don’t even realize they’re in a fight until its too late. Attacker: “Die, scum!” Moron: “Huh… what… hey!” (dies) \*\* > [@](#): > > And, just to steer this back to the OP, **Power station** asked for his views to be analyzed for homophobia, and stated that they were “live and let live” – so long as the gay people “keep it private.” It occurs to me that it might not be a bad idea to explain to him what’s wrong with that stance – something we’ve effectively been hijacked from. \*\* To seriously answer POWER’s position: he is a bigot, based upon what he says. Not because he finds gay sex icky, but because he support discrimination against gays in regards to marriage and adoption. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/150 "2002-04-08T20:29:48Z")
> [@](#): > > What anniversary is that – balsa wood? I don’t have a clue – I thought the stereotype called for _you_ to be the expert on good taste and etiquette! 😉 But thanks for the congratulations. Seriously, a fair proportion of this board (on the order of 80-90%) is in favor of gay rights, almost totally as strongly as you (though not quite with the vehemence), and is generally in disagreement, not on whether they are entitled to them, but on how best to accomplish the ends of getting them for them. Check some old threads on the subject; you’ll be surprised. Also, with reference to an exchange in a related Pit thread, don’t forget that there are independent Baptists and the ABC, the former ranging from rabid fundy. to extremely liberal and the latter among the most liberal denominations. Baptist =! SBC member. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/151 "2002-04-08T20:30:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, fine. Take all my positions, and tone them down by about 3000% if you want see where I really stand on things. But you see, you’re not all that real to me, either. Certainly you’re not real enough for me to want to have to work hard to discover the truth of an issue I frankly don’t give a tinker’s damn about, such as “where you really stand on things.” I mean, life is short. You’re either . . . well, let’s just call it “unsmart,” or you’re pretending to be “unsmart,” and I find I can’t be bothered to care which of those reflects reality. What’s blindingly obvious, however, is that you’re wasting my time – time which, while cheap, isn’t _that_ cheap. So while you make up your mind as to whether you’re done being a jerk or not, I’m just going to wander off to a thread where my time isn’t being _quite_ so obviously wasted. Toodles. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/152 "2002-04-08T21:58:36Z")
Geez, everybody gets so uptight around here. **POWER\_station** , I will give you as literal an answer as I can. **Yes** , it is ok to be homophobic, because we are all entitled to our fears, rational or not. Almost everyone can identify groups of people or situations with which they are uncomfortable for some reason. What is not ok is to act out on those fears in the civic arena. If you do so you may be crossing a line into mental illness. You are self-described as “homophobic”, and implicit to the definition of that term is the concept of _irrational fear_. You must recognize that your gut level reactions are, in fact, irrational, and you must judge your own subequent behavior with this in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Newton\_meter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/57b2e6/32.png) [@Newton\_meter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Newton_meter)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/153 "2002-04-08T22:23:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimboguy \* > **Geez, everybody gets so uptight around here.** It was pointed out early on that it was “OK” to be homophobic. The ever-helpful SDMB was trying to answer the followup question: “Should I be homophobic?”. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/154 "2002-04-09T03:08:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > **Don’t hold your breath. Victory will come through a court order.** What good is a victory in court if the people still hate you? Seems like a hollow victory at best. ---
**Author:** ![POWER\_station](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@POWER\_station](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POWER_station)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/155 "2002-04-09T03:29:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\* > > Anyone who won’t stand against bigotry and spit in the face of people like POWER, with his bigotted and evil agenda, is not an ally worth having. > > \*\* > > Sure, from decent people. Power doesn’t qualify as a decent person. Anyone who supports the descrimination against gays by the Federal and State governments in regards to marriage and adoption is a bigot. They are filth. > > And the world would be better without bigots. Ergo, the world would be better without them. > > They are a dying breed. More and more, straight people, especially younger ones, support equality. It is filth like POWER who continue to block the road. I just think if they want to throw themselves in front of the train of progress, we shouldn’t bother to hit the brakes. > > Kirk \*\* and you are one of those liberal tolerant people that speak of freedom. I am entitled to have the opinions I want. I think gays like you should have more taste than you show here. You sceam for tolerance and becomes intolerant the moment you feel that you have some kind of majority on your side. How old are you ? ---
**Author:** ![POWER\_station](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@POWER\_station](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POWER_station)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/156 "2002-04-09T03:38:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimboguy \* > \*\*Geez, everybody gets so uptight around here. **POWER\_station** , I will give you as literal an answer as I can. > > **Yes** , it is ok to be homophobic, because we are all entitled to our fears, rational or not. Almost everyone can identify groups of people or situations with which they are uncomfortable for some reason. > > What is not ok is to act out on those fears in the civic arena. If you do so you may be crossing a line into mental illness. > > You are self-described as “homophobic”, and implicit to the definition of that term is the concept of _irrational fear_. You must recognize that your gut level reactions are, in fact, irrational, and you must judge your own subequent behavior with this in mind. \*\* Irrational fear ?? Well that depends, if the cause of homosexuality is biological or social. It’s not irrational to be homophobic if the cause for homosexuality is social. = A society that are very liberal when it comes to sex and homosexuality tend to create more homosexuals. However, I do not know if the cause is biological or social. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/157 "2002-04-09T03:40:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by POWER\_station \* > \*\* > It’s not irrational to be homophobic if the cause for homosexuality is social. = A society that are very liberal when it comes to sex and homosexuality tend to create more homosexuals. \*\* Well, and assuming that’s true (I don’t think it is, but lets say so), why is a society with more homosexuals a bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/158 "2002-04-09T03:50:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > \*\*What good is a victory in court if the people still hate you? Seems like a hollow victory at best. \*\* Because then we’d still have the tax, familial and parental rights and priveleges. We’d still be legitimized by the government. To hell with the bigots. A hollow victory is better than defeat. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/159 "2002-04-09T03:53:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by POWER\_station \* > **and you are one of those liberal tolerant people that speak of freedom.** I am not in anyway a liberal. At least, not in the American sense. > [@](#): > > I am entitled to have the opinions I want. Sure you are. But your opinions against gays are bigotted and dangerous, and society should rebuke you for them. You would deny me equal protection under the law, just because you find me “icky.” That’s despicable. I apologize for my hyperbole, but my intention stands: if you do not believe in total equality for all people, then you are not a good person. In my estimation, of course. > [@](#): > > How old are you ? 1. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![POWER\_station](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@POWER\_station](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POWER_station)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086/160 "2002-04-09T04:34:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\* > > Well, and assuming that’s true (I don’t think it is, but lets say so), why is a society with more homosexuals a bad thing? \*\* Because sexuality is a very fundamental aspect of mankind. I think that most people understand that homosexuality isn’t normal. It’s very basic really. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-be-homophobic/102086.md?page=9)