# Is it OK to burn money? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782 "2010-07-06T21:53:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/1 "2010-07-06T21:53:51Z")
As a political stunt 100.000 SEK (~$13.100) was burned on a stage today. The person burning it was the lead representative for the swedish feminist party. The reason (other than publicity) was to show how much money women in Sweden are losing\* every minute. This has sparked huge attention nationally but also come to international attention. There’s a lot of moral outrage… is it warranted? - There is controversy surrounding the number. The average man earns about $600 more per month so they should have burned a lot more money if you just go by that. Not sure if they got it wrong or if they might have just calculated from the difference that is discrimination (where men and women doing the same job are paid differently) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/2 "2010-07-06T21:59:45Z")
I don’t see why not. You can buy something with the money and burn it after all. It’s obviously wasteful though. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/3 "2010-07-06T22:04:02Z")
Why would it be immoral? The money could be reprinted and the effect on the Swedish economy or money supply would be miniscule. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/4 "2010-07-06T22:25:06Z")
Governments destroy people’s very lives for what they considered is for the public good, seems only right that the people should be able to destroy government assets for what they decide is for the public good. By the standard you judge you will be judged. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/5 "2010-07-06T22:54:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I don’t see why not. You can buy something with the money and burn it after all. It’s obviously wasteful though. My thoughts exactly. Besides, you own the money (assuming you do), so it’s yours to do as you wish. Of course, we’re ignoring the effect on Global Warming… ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/6 "2010-07-06T23:23:57Z")
Well just because there’s moral outrage doesn’t mean there’s something immoral going on. But there’s usually something something going on. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/7 "2010-07-07T00:10:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Governments destroy people’s very lives for what they considered is for the public good, seems only right that the people should be able to destroy government assets for what they decide is for the public good. > > By the standard you judge you will be judged. :rolleyes: Perhaps it is like burning the flag. Perhaps Swedes identify with their money more than Americans do. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/8 "2010-07-07T00:46:08Z")
I don’t see the problem. They spent SEK 100,000 on a gesture to call public attention to something they regard as a social issue needing public attention. In fact they spent rather more. If the money was burnt on a stage, presumably the stage was in a hall or theatre somewhere, and they had to hire the hall or theatre. Perhaps there were staff costs or transport costs as well, and various other overheads. Consuming money by burning banknotes to make a political point is no different from consuming money buy buying goods and services which will be wholly used to make the same political point. If you think the political point isn’t worth making then you’ll view the whole exercise as a waste, but that is true whether the exercise involves burning banknotes or not. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/9 "2010-07-07T00:52:15Z")
Hmpf. Well everyone is just making the same points as I do. Was looking for some explanation into the other sides reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/10 "2010-07-07T00:59:51Z")
Burning huge sums of cash is so 1994: [K Foundation Burn a Million Quid - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Foundation_Burn_a_Million_Quid) ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/11 "2010-07-07T01:50:20Z")
If you buy something with the money it gets transferred to another person. Burning the money takes it permanently out of circulation. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/12 "2010-07-07T02:42:58Z")
> [@gladtobeblazed](#): > > If you buy something with the money it gets transferred to another person. Burning the money takes it permanently out of circulation. So does framing the first dollar a company makes. Or making a necklace from a quarter, or leaving a penny on a railroad track to be run over by a train, or using a $100 bill to light a cigar. It’s the owner’s money, they have every right to do whatever they want with it. ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/13 "2010-07-07T03:06:16Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > So does framing the first dollar a company makes. Or making a necklace from a quarter, or leaving a penny on a railroad track to be run over by a train, or using a $100 bill to light a cigar. It’s the owner’s money, they have every right to do whatever they want with it. Correct, they have the right to do with it what they will. But just because they have a right to do something doesn’t mean it’s ethical. I suppose the question is equivalent to this: Is it unethical to destroy a useful object when it could be recycled? I suppose it then becomes a question of individual property rights vs collective rights. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/14 "2010-07-07T03:20:02Z")
> [@gladtobeblazed](#): > > If you buy something with the money it gets transferred to another person. Burning the money takes it permanently out of circulation. But whatever goods or services you could have bought with it still exist. You haven’t destroyed anything of intrinsic value. What you have done, I suppose is fractionally increase the value of each Swedish Krone still in existence, since there is now a slightly smaller pool of Kroner chasing the same volume of goods and services; you have transferred wealth from yourself to the Kroner-holding community at large. Looks altruistic to me! ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/15 "2010-07-07T03:38:20Z")
I’m fairly sure that money is actually _owned_ by the gov’t. Modern coins and notes are a representation of value that is guaranteed (kind-of) by whoever is in charge of the national economy. So burning banknotes is destroying someone else’s property: you own the _value_ of the note, you don’t own the physical note itself. Destroying (and defacing) money is illegal in most countries, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/16 "2010-07-07T03:45:08Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > So does framing the first dollar a company makes. Or making a necklace from a quarter, or leaving a penny on a railroad track to be run over by a train, or using a $100 bill to light a cigar. \*\* It’s the owner’s money\*\*, they have every right to do whatever they want with it. bolding mine Actually, I don’t think that money is his. Or yours. I thought that the bills and coins themselves were owned by the Federal Reserve (or the Treasury), at all times, and are just in circulation for the use of the public. I know that it’s illegal to deface or destroy US currency. > [@18 U.S.C. 331](#): > > Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled or lightened - shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/17 "2010-07-07T04:08:29Z")
I’m not aware that notes and coins are technically owned by the sovereign, but I suppose that may vary from country to country. But, even if they are, the intrinsic value of the paper and ink in a banknote is trivial. If people object to the destruction of a banknote, I doubt that it is the value of the paper which concerns them. ---
**Author:** ![DHMO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@DHMO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DHMO)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/18 "2010-07-07T04:48:01Z")
See Wiki article on [Money](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money). Most countries today (and I would suppose Sweden is one) employ "[Fiat Money"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money). The actual notes, themselves, have no intrinsic value, and are worth whatever the issuing agency (Federal Reserve, Government Mint, etc.) says they are. > [@](#): > > [from linked Wiki article on money] Fiat money, if physically represented in the form of currency (paper or coins) can be accidentally damaged or destroyed. However, fiat money has an advantage over representative or commodity money, in that the same laws that created the money can also define rules for its replacement in case of damage or destruction. For example, the U.S. government will replace mutilated [Federal Reserve notes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Note) (U.S. fiat money) if at least half of the physical note can be reconstructed, or if it can be otherwise proven to have been destroyed. By contrast, commodity money which has been lost or destroyed cannot be recovered. It may be possible, if the demonstrators could “prove” that the bills had been destroyed, they could receive the replacement bills and not be out any actual money. In any case, the total of all currency in circulation is a small fraction of the total “money” (M1, M2 and M3) in an economy. The bills destroyed in the demonstration are a small fraction of the currency in circulation, so I fail to see the source of the moral outrage. 😕😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/19 "2010-07-07T04:58:22Z")
> [@gladtobeblazed](#): > > Correct, they have the right to do with it what they will. But just because they have a right to do something doesn’t mean it’s ethical. > > I suppose the question is equivalent to this: Is it unethical to destroy a useful object when it could be recycled? Is it ethical to be a coin collector? When state quarters were being issued, a coworker of mine was saving one of each state. It never would have occurred to me that she was being unethical in removing $12.50 from circulation. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I know that it’s illegal to deface or destroy US currency. That’s a fairly common misreading; when I was a good deal younger one of the draws for a couple of people I knew to drilling a hole in the middle of a quarter and wearing it as a necklace was their mistaken belief that it was rebellious since they thought it was a federal crime. Defacing or destroying US currency is perfectly legal. What is illegal is then trying to pass said currency on as legal tender. 18 USC 331 requires fraudulent intent, > [@](#): > > Whoever **fraudulently** alters > … > ; \*\*or whoever fraudulently \*\*possesses… From the US Mint [under Fraudulent Presidential $1 Error Coins Being Sold](http://www.usmint.gov/consumer/?action=archives), bolding mine: > [@](#): > > Although altering and defacing United States coinage generally is not illegal, doing so violates a Federal criminal statute (18 U.S.C. § 331) **when the act is accompanied by an intent to defraud.** Accordingly, a person is committing a Federal crime if he or she intentionally alters an ordinary Presidential $1 Coin to make it look like an error coin for the purpose of selling it at a premium to someone who believes it to be a real error coin. Under this statute, it is also a Federal crime to sell at a premium an ordinary Presidential $1 Coin that one knows has been altered so it looks like an error coin to someone who believes it to be a real error coin. Penalties include a fine and up to five years in prison. > > The United States Mint has no Federal enforcement authority. Rather, it refers such matters to the United States Secret Service, which is lawfully authorized to detect and arrest any person who violates a Federal law relating to United States coinage. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782/20 "2010-07-07T05:35:42Z")
Incidentally, currency is but a small fraction of the money supply anyway. And I openly challenge the notion that Federal Reserve Notes are owned by the government. As for the recycling point, burning currency means that you can no longer exchange it for a checking deposit, and the bank in turn won’t return the bill to the Fed for credit on their account. Lost and destroyed notes are an aspect of [Seigniorage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage) which is a source of profit for the government and taxpayer. Of course burning currency is unseemly, which is probably the source of the controversy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-burn-money/545782.md?page=2)