# Is it OK to present veganism to 9 year olds? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 11, 2019, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704 "2019-12-11T10:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/21 "2019-12-11T15:36:46Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > If they’re having an activist promote veganism, will there be an activist promoting a carnivore lifestyle? Maybe someone representing big beef? I nominate [Macho Man Randy Savage.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxp_3000h_U) As far as presenting info to kids, I wonder if this presentation also informed them of [the disadvantages of going vegan.](https://www.self.com/story/vegan-diet-pros-cons) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/22 "2019-12-11T15:40:26Z")
It’s OK to say, “Some people are vegans, and here’s what that means.” It’s \*not \*OK to say, “Some people are vegans, and you should be one too.” It is \*\*\*unnacceptable \*\*\* to show “shock video” to a captive audience of elementary school kids and the parents should be outraged. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/23 "2019-12-11T15:41:10Z")
Yeah, they shouldn’t have done that. Part of the issue is that nine and ten year olds don’t control their grocery shopping, they don’t control their food, and they aren’t good enough researchers to give themselves a healthy vegan diet. So you are putting the nine year old who buys into the vegan activism and whose parents do not in a bad place - creating conflict and stress - in their own internal selves and within their homes. And this is happening at a point in their development where they are beginning to separate from their parents, where it starts to get difficult to retain a connection, and where “you aren’t the boss of me” becomes a very big deal. A healthy vegan diet is not easy to support - its doable, but it isn’t a matter of making sure your nine year old eats their vegetables. Especially working to make sure that a growing body gets calcium, protein and good fats in sufficient quantities. It isn’t something a nine year old can do by themselves, the parents have to buy in. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/24 "2019-12-11T15:41:12Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > If they’re having an activist promote veganism, will there be an activist promoting a carnivore lifestyle? Maybe someone representing big beef? Yes, they will be showing [this](https://youtu.be/5oJS9_UUUWg?t=124). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/25 "2019-12-11T15:46:30Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > But some of us (not you, apparently) consider it morally correct to help other people. And you’d have no problem with us teaching your kids that helping other people is morally correct, right? I also think it is morally correct for ME to help other people. But I don’t judge others on my own morality. That’s ridiculous. And no, I don’t want you to tell my kids that anything is morally correct and they should do it. Keep your own morals to yourself, regardless if I agree with you or not. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/26 "2019-12-11T15:47:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Helping people, following the law, and not thrashing the planet are not “moral” stances. > [@Slash1972](#): > > I find nothing immoral about never helping someone. Perhaps you consider that immoral, but that is based on your own morality. Something I’d like to avoid exposing my kids to while they are in school - someone else’s morality. With the first quote you seem to dismiss the comparison between this vegan presentation and schools teaching about helping people. But the second quote appear to be against teaching kids to help people, as that is exposing them to someone else’s morality. I’m not saying you don’t have a consistent opinion here, but I can’t figure it out. Was your intent with the first quote not to contrast those messages with the vegan “propaganda”, but to confirm that you consider them equal? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/27 "2019-12-11T15:47:15Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > What’s wrong with a kid knowing about where their food comes from? What you call a “shock video” others might call a peek behind the curtain. I don’t think kids need to be steeped in gore for its own sake, but they should know that meat comes from living animals that are killed, and that the killing is done on an industrial scale in an industrial way. If it doesn’t put them off meat altogether, it will at least make them appreciate the meat on their plates, and the lives that were extinguished to put it there, a little more. I find it difficult to understand any objection to that. First and foremost, children that age are not emotionally equipped to deal with images that are curated to be deliberately disturbing. A video presented by activists is bound to be biased and intended to disturb people. I can accept that for an adult audience but not children who are not given the opportunity to opt out. Second, it is propaganda. Even if the video contains factual accounts, those accounts might not be typical. Children that age are very impressionable and have not developed critical thinking skills yet. I don’t think there is anything wrong with an explanation to children about where meat comes from, but doing it with a video whose purpose is to disturb viewers is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/28 "2019-12-11T15:49:33Z")
Why not? We “introduce” them to crap like McDonald’s and White Castle when they are mere toddlers. Few question that. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/29 "2019-12-11T15:54:11Z")
I think I’d ask for the activist’s phone number, then pass it out to all the parents involved, with advice to call this number when their kid wakes up screaming after a nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/30 "2019-12-11T15:54:12Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Why not? We “introduce” them to crap like McDonald’s and White Castle when they are mere toddlers. Few question that. If by “we” you mean “a kid’s own parents”, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/31 "2019-12-11T15:54:48Z")
> [@naita](#): > > With the first quote you seem to dismiss the comparison between this vegan presentation and schools teaching about helping people. > > But the second quote appear to be against teaching kids to help people, as that is exposing them to someone else’s morality. > > I’m not saying you don’t have a consistent opinion here, but I can’t figure it out. > > Was your intent with the first quote not to contrast those messages with the vegan “propaganda”, but to confirm that you consider them equal? There isn’t anything moral or immoral in general in helping people, or not littering, or saving the planet. If you tell my kids “Helping people is morally correct” and they don’t want to do it, maybe they feel they are acting “immorally” by not helping people. And I don’t want them to feel they are acting “immorally” based on what others tell them. I personally feel that helping people is a moral thing to do and will tell my own kids that. I would never tell somebody else that. So, if you are using morality as a way to get my kids to help people, then don’t. And if you can’t think of a reason to help people that doesn’t include “morality”, then don’t tell my kids to do it. I’ll take care of morality and what “having morals” means in my own family, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/32 "2019-12-11T15:57:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > There isn’t anything moral or immoral in general in helping people, or not littering, or saving the planet. > > If you tell my kids “Helping people is morally correct” and they don’t want to do it, maybe they feel they are acting “immorally” by not helping people. And I don’t want them to feel they are acting “immorally” based on what others tell them. I personally feel that helping people is a moral thing to do and will tell my own kids that. I would never tell somebody else that. So, if you are using morality as a way to get my kids to help people, then don’t. And if you can’t think of a reason to help people that doesn’t include “morality”, then don’t tell my kids to do it. I’ll take care of morality and what “having morals” means in my own family, thanks. Well if that’s how you feel, I’ve got some bad news for you, man… your kids are getting brainwashed. Don’t let them watch Sesame Street either. Or Mr. Rogers. Yikes! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/33 "2019-12-11T16:09:06Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Well if that’s how you feel, I’ve got some bad news for you, man… your kids are getting brainwashed. > > Don’t let them watch Sesame Street either. Or Mr. Rogers. Yikes! I’m specifically talking about schools. Last I checked, Sesame Street didn’t have vegans on it telling people it was immoral to eat meat. And I’ve never seen a slaughterhouse video on Mr. Rogers. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/34 "2019-12-11T16:22:21Z")
A) I’m not at all convinced the presenter in the OP was an “activist” and not simply an “environmentalist”. Perhaps both. Not sure why the subject being presented should be seen as a problem. B) This: > [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > What’s wrong with a kid knowing about where their food comes from? What you call a “shock video” others might call a peek behind the curtain. I don’t think kids need to be steeped in gore for its own sake, but they should know that meat comes from living animals that are killed, and that the killing is done on an industrial scale in an industrial way. If it doesn’t put them off meat altogether, it will at least make them appreciate the meat on their plates, and the lives that were extinguished to put it there, a little more. I find it difficult to understand any objection to that. > > Further, by coming to know about industrial meat production they might actually start to think about where ALL of their food comes from, and how production is often a compromise between personal and environmental safety, and the yields necessary to feed a planet. And from there, they might start to think about where all of their stuff comes from, who makes it, and at what personal cost to the workers and at what cost to the ecology. > > If you think, as I do, that school is about preparing kids to survive in the world, then I think the event as described in the OP is not only a good idea, but should also be a required and often repeated lesson.They are if they aren’t coddled from womb to adulthood. Life, _real_ life, is messy and unpleasant most of the time. Most of their parents don’t understand that, but that doesn’t mean the illusion we currently live should be allowed to endure. And what is wrong with veganism? It’s sustainable, it’s not unhealthy, and it’s conscionable. C) There are lots of children, much younger than 9 or 10 who are very familiar from an early age that some animals have to die in order for them to have meat on their table. Few if any of those children are scarred or damaged for the rest of their lives. I’m not suggesting they need to be exposed to all the gory details of an abbatoir, but it can only be a good thing if they see where chicken nuggets and hamburgers come from. D) Many adults could stand to learn where their meat comes from as well. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/35 "2019-12-11T16:23:15Z")
> [@Orville\_mogul](#): > > I just learned (after the fact) that yesterday my daughter’s school invited in an activist to make a presentation to them about veganism. This was to a group of 9 and 10 year olds. This was part of a larger programme of presenting different world views and points of view. > > Generally I like this idea (very different from when I was a kid), but I am a bit concerned about the impacts letting an activist try to ‘sell’ them on veganism. As it is, we have a very hard time trying to get my daughter to eat, and I fear that should she choose to adopt veganism, there could be negative nutritional impacts. Not eating meat is one thing, but I really worry what would happen if she avoided eggs and dairy. She is not at all interested in the vegan alternative foods like tofu and most pulses. > > Do you think it was irresponsible of the school to invite this speaker? Do you think that kids should be exposed to veganism at this age? > > I should mention that this person was actually an activist, not a nutritional professional, ecologist, etc. Apparently he even showed a shock video with images inside an abbatoir…. > > Perspectives appreciated. How does your daughter’s school do lunches? If they’ve got an onsite cafeteria, and especially if they have a free lunch program, then it’s irresponsible to have a speaker promoting veganism if the school isn’t offering vegan lunches. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/36 "2019-12-11T16:31:04Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > First and foremost, children that age are not emotionally equipped to deal with images that are curated to be deliberately disturbing. > … > Second, it is propaganda. Even if the video contains factual accounts, those accounts might not be typical > … I do respect what you are saying, but I disagree with the meaning. Yes, the videos are disturbing. Shit, I’m a jaded old man and I don’t like watching them. But industrial meat production is devastating to the ecology, and the methane generated by the animals contributes meaningfully to climate change (if that sort of thing is on your radar). Further, industrial meat production frequently subjects creatures to horribly squalid conditions for extended periods of time. In the case of poultry & eggs it is straight up inhumane by just about any standard. These are hard but meaningful truths, and I think it is worth shocking children with them so they can put pressure on the people in their lives with the actual power to effect meaningful changes. If the parents have a different perspective, then it would be a useful exercise in debate to have them present it to the kids. Children generally lack the life experience to be subject matter experts, but they tend not to be born fools–they get turned into them by years of intellectual neglect. To the second point: The US Immigration process does not typically break up families and store preschool children in cages exposed to extreme climates for extended periods of time. How frequent does an abominable act have to become before it can be considered typical, or at least worthy of addressing? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/37 "2019-12-11T16:37:53Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > If you think, as I do, that school is about preparing kids to survive in the world, then I think the event as described in the OP is not only a good idea, but should also be a required and often repeated lesson.They are if they aren’t coddled from womb to adulthood. Life, _real_ life, is messy and unpleasant most of the time. Most of their parents don’t understand that, but that doesn’t mean the illusion we currently live should be allowed to endure. And what is wrong with veganism? It’s sustainable, it’s not unhealthy, and it’s conscionable. School’s not about preparing kids to survive in the world. That’s absurd. If it was, the course mix would be a lot different- we’d have a lot more life skills type courses, and a lot less purely academic stuff. We’d have a lot more “How not to get ripped off by predatory lenders” and “How to tell bullshit from real facts” type education, and a lot less stuff about exploring the nature of masculinity in Hemingway’s writing, and how to factor polynomials. Beyond that, veganism is something that’s regarded as fairly extreme- most people are omnivorous and eat animal products and plants. I wouldn’t have a problem with someone saying in school that we should eat mostly plants, and less meat than we do - that’s true. But I draw the line at some clown coming in and telling my kids that we shouldn’t eat honey because the bees are enslaved, or that wool sweaters are off limits because the sheep don’t have a choice, or other vegan nonsense like that. That sort of thing is where it goes from being a nutritional choice to propaganda in favor of a specific extreme viewpoint. While I have no problem with vegetarianism, I think vegans are loons when it comes to stuff like honey or wool or leather, and I don’t want that kind of stuff pushed at my children while cloaked in the legitimacy of the educational system, especially when they’re small children. High schoolers have more experience and education in how to tell that sort of thing is nonsense, but second graders are far less equipped. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/38 "2019-12-11T16:46:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But I draw the line at some clown coming in and telling my kids that we shouldn’t eat honey because the bees are enslaved, or that wool sweaters are off limits because the sheep don’t have a choice, or other vegan nonsense like that. That sort of thing is where it goes from being a nutritional choice to propaganda in favor of a specific extreme viewpoint. While I have no problem with vegetarianism, I think vegans are loons when it comes to stuff like honey or wool or leather, and I don’t want that kind of stuff pushed at my children while cloaked in the legitimacy of the educational system, especially when they’re small children. High schoolers have more experience and education in how to tell that sort of thing is nonsense, but second graders are far less equipped. Yes. All vegans are the caricature you painted. All of them. No exceptions. Loons the lot. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/39 "2019-12-11T16:47:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Beyond that, veganism is something that’s regarded as fairly extreme- most people are omnivorous and eat animal products and plants. I wouldn’t have a problem with someone saying in school that we should eat mostly plants, and less meat than we do - that’s true. > > But I draw the line at some clown coming in and telling my kids that we shouldn’t eat honey because the bees are enslaved, or that wool sweaters are off limits because the sheep don’t have a choice, or other vegan nonsense like that. That sort of thing is where it goes from being a nutritional choice to propaganda in favor of a specific extreme viewpoint. While I have no problem with vegetarianism, I think vegans are loons when it comes to stuff like honey or wool or leather, and I don’t want that kind of stuff pushed at my children while cloaked in the legitimacy of the educational system, especially when they’re small children. High schoolers have more experience and education in how to tell that sort of thing is nonsense, but second graders are far less equipped. You know…yes. I sometimes forget about extremists, and how they can monkeywrench an otherwise reasonable position. I still don’t think the situation described in the OP was particularly off base, but it dances on the line. I think “This was part of a larger programme of presenting different world views and points of view” mitigates the issue, as the concept seems to have been presented in a “Hey, this is one perspective on our relationship with animals” sort of way. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/40 "2019-12-11T17:01:04Z")
Why are we assuming the vegan presentation was some kind of nefarious indoctrination? I think it it perfectly possible (even likely\*) that the presentation was a even-handed explanation of what the person giving the presentation thought about food and why he came to think that way. That is not indoctrination, that is education. Sadly it is not possible to show any footage from the meat industry that will not qualify as “shock video”. Again, that is not indoctrination but simple fact. Any discussion about our food without some idea of what we are doing to the animals we eat would be horribly one-sided. One could argue that 9 is a bit young to be confronted with such realities. I would argue otherwise. - Likely because it was sanctioned by the educators the OP carefully selected. They wouldn’t allow anything but a factually correct story, would they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704.md?page=3)