# Is it OK to present veganism to 9 year olds? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 11, 2019, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704 "2019-12-11T10:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/81 "2019-12-12T04:34:46Z")
I’m a little thrown by the title of the thread. Of course it’s OK to present veganism to 9 year olds, in the sense of telling them (if they don’t already know) that some people are vegans. Some 9 year olds are the children of vegans, or have friends who are vegans or the children of vegans, or live in houses where vegans come to visit. It is no more OK to present to 9 year olds a claim that everybody should be a vegan than a claim that nobody should be one. Physically, not everyone does well on the same diet. Environmentally, the situation is a whole lot more complicated than some people seem to think. [The diet with the least environmental impact, in many parts of the world, is not an entirely vegetarian one, let alone a vegan one](https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2007/10/diet-little-meat-more-efficient-many-vegetarian-diets). There are a whole lot more species that can find habitat in a properly managed livestock pasture than in a monocropped soybean field. A feedlot is another matter, of course; but ‘be careful where you get your meat’ is entirely different advice from ‘never eat any meat at all.’ Children should learn that hamburger was once part of a live cow, yes. And when I decided I was going to keep eating meat I went to watch a properly done slaughter, to make sure I knew what I was doing. But landing the gory details of a slaughterhouse, in particular if it was a poorly run one, on a class of 9 year olds is a very bad idea. The presenter had no idea of the details of the lives of those kids, and no more business landing that on them than they would have had for giving a Veterans’ Day presentation including graphic video of soldiers dying on the battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/82 "2019-12-12T05:07:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Veganism does not pose a threat to society in the way that guns have been shown to. Who says guns are a threat to society? That’s something that’s dependent on your viewpoint, just like the merits of veganism vs. the evils of eating meat. My point was that both the 2nd amendment activist AND the vegan activist are pushing a particular viewpoint as fact, when they’re most certainly opinion, but doing so by borrowing the school’s legitimacy. It’s not the veganism per-se that’s the issue, it’s the cloaking it in false legitimacy that’s the issue. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/83 "2019-12-12T07:12:46Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Do you really think a vegan activist showing shock videos as described in the OP is trying to educate children about meat butchery? I think there’s a societal need for people who eat meat to understand how the animals they’re eating are being raised and slaughtered. That will improve animal welfare standards and encourage personal responsibility. But society’s not going to achieve that through gross-out tactics, especially when they’re inflicted upon children. > > Is your opinion that food shows that start with the cow and end with the steaks should also show the cow being shocked and then shot in the head, followed by decapitation, removal of the feet, gutting, and then removal of the skin? I’m sure there’s a market for those shows, but I doubt they sell many commercials. I’ve seen light versions of such shows, but I wouldn’t show them to a nine year old, especially without a lot of preparation. I wonder how many farm children (who know damn well where hamburgers are from) are vegans vs. People raised like your children? Is the point of your education to create more vegans? Then by all means hide the icky parts of meat production. You seem to have a weird idea of cause and effect. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/84 "2019-12-12T07:51:49Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Not to pile on, but helping people and not thrashing the planet are the only moral stances that matter. Following the law…that’s a lot more personal. > > As for what to show 9-10 year old kids, well, then you nailed it. We disagree. When I was in 10th grade, we had to do an [I-search paper](http://www.readwritethink.org/professional-development/strategy-guides/promoting-student-directed-inquiry-30783.html) in our English class. I remember one girl did it on the meat industry, and showed what I now suspect was a heavily doctored\* video of a pig being slaughtered. I was 15, and it was seriously disgusting. (I don’t know what the teacher was thinking in letting her show this – especially as it was around lunch time.) I can’t imagine how it would have affected me when I was 9. I knew were meat came from. I did not want to see animals fucking tortured. \*Should it really take 5 people 20 minutes just to kill one freaking pig? If so, the meat industry is really, really inefficient. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/85 "2019-12-12T08:15:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > (…)I did not want to see animals fucking tortured. > > \*Should it really take 5 people 20 minutes just to kill one freaking pig? If so, the meat industry is really, really inefficient. Maybe instead of talking about how nobody should show us how meat is made we should be talking about creating a process that CAN be shown to 9 year olds. A bit of sunlight on the darker parts of the meat industry might do everybody (including the animals) some good. FTR: I eat meat and I’m more worried about the environmental impact of meat production than about animal welfare. Maybe this is an instance where we can kill (ha!) two birds with one stone? ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/86 "2019-12-12T10:20:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s at least one vegan teacher at my school. I know because one time (once!) she posted a pro-vegan video on her FB page. Also, at one point I was talking with her about food (I forget details, maybe asking her if she’d gotten one of the cookies in the break room), and she mentioned her veganism in response to my comment. > > The caricature is absolutely inaccurate with her, and with other vegans I know. > > That said, I teach 9-year-olds, and I would never bring any sort of activist in to the classroom to preach. I’ve brought in politicians as part of our study of government, but they’ve been overwhelmingly, and appropriately, nonpartisan within the classroom. I’d love to know more details about why the teacher brought this person in. Based on your experience as an elementary school teacher, do you think a classroom of nine-year-olds are mature enough to understand a presentation on veganism as “part of a larger programme of presenting different world views and points of view”? ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/87 "2019-12-12T11:37:08Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > I wonder how many farm children (who know damn well where hamburgers are from) are vegans vs. People raised like your children? > > Is the point of your education to create more vegans? Then by all means hide the icky parts of meat production. > > You seem to have a weird idea of cause and effect. I’m focusing on this line from the OP: > [@](#): > > I should mention that this person was actually an activist, not a nutritional professional, ecologist, etc. Apparently he even showed a shock video with images inside an abbatoir. Should a classroom of nine-year-old be shown a “shock video with images inside an abattoir”? Absolutely not. Are nine-year-olds mature enough to be told that meat comes from animals? Sure. Let them know that the cows and pigs and chickens from Old McDonald’s Farm ended up on somebody’s dinner plate. I don’t think a typical western society nine-year-old is mature enough to understand the details of the commercial meat industry. However, I’m happy to defer to the judgment of elementary educators making a considered decision. However, I’d be very surprised, and would object, if that considered decision was to educate the nine-year-olds by distressing them with graphic videos of animals being slaughtered. The “effect” I’d wish to avoid is a classroom of crying children who later suffer nightmares “caused” by someone with an ideological agenda. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/88 "2019-12-12T11:55:36Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Why? I think this is not a hijack, because it addresses the same concern raised in the OP: unpleasant visuals. But why teach about something inherently icky, without examining the icky parts? Without the violence, immaciation, and mounds of rotting former mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters The Holocaust was just another rather hateful series of arrests. The Horrors of the holocaust are the whole point of teaching it. Cool, cool. So I’m pro-life. I’m going to come to your child’s school and show them a few videos. Here’s what a 6 to 8 week old embryo looks like, see how it’s moving around? You kids see that it’s alive, and not that “blob of cells” pro-choice people tell you about because that only lasts a few days into pregnancy and women don’t know they’re pregnant yet at that point, so most abortions are done at this stage. Now here’s a video of an abortion. I have more visual aids, so we’ll also view a video of an abortion done on a 22-week-old fetus who unfortunately has a devastating genetic defect incompatible with life. I’ll explain that this is the only moral reason to have an abortion, because it spares the baby pointless suffering which he or she can’t overcome, unlike being poor or having a bad childhood. They’re nine. Surely they’re ready to handle the icky realities of what a woman’s choice results in when they choose abortion, right? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/89 "2019-12-12T12:00:59Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Based on your experience as an elementary school teacher, do you think a classroom of nine-year-olds are mature enough to understand a presentation on veganism as “part of a larger programme of presenting different world views and points of view”? I mean, I’ve tried to teach my kids about the impeachment process, about the Syrian civil war, about immigration trends, about Medicaid, about the Leandro decision (NC’s court case about the NC constitutional right to a sound, basic education), and a lot more. I don’t mind ambitious teaching :). My concern is on bringing in an activist to teach the subject. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/90 "2019-12-12T12:55:59Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > They’re nine. Surely they’re ready to handle the icky realities of what a woman’s choice results in when they choose abortion, right? So, as a way of arguing the ‘inappropriateness’ of presenting veganism to 9 year-olds, we’ve thus far had comparisons to presentations about: food born deadly diseases, pro-gun advocacy, and now pro-life advocacy. Interesting to see the extent to which otherwise reasonable people will go when considering the subject of veganism and exposing the issues surrounding the meat industry to children. Seems to me, lunacy is not strictly limited to vegans. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/91 "2019-12-12T14:40:48Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Maybe instead of talking about how nobody should show us how meat is made we should be talking about creating a process that CAN be shown to 9 year olds. > > A bit of sunlight on the darker parts of the meat industry might do everybody (including the animals) some good. > FTR: I eat meat and I’m more worried about the environmental impact of meat production than about animal welfare. > Maybe this is an instance where we can kill (ha!) two birds with one stone? Perhaps it should first be established that we SHOULD show how meat is made to 9 year olds? Why 9? Why not 5? or 16? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/92 "2019-12-12T14:42:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So, as a way of arguing the ‘inappropriateness’ of presenting veganism to 9 year-olds, we’ve thus far had comparisons to presentations about: food born deadly diseases, pro-gun advocacy, and now pro-life advocacy. > > Interesting to see the extent to which otherwise reasonable people will go when considering the subject of veganism and exposing the issues surrounding the meat industry to children. Seems to me, lunacy is not strictly limited to vegans. Could you tell us if you are for or against the type of presentation described by **elfkin477** being shown to 9 year olds? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/93 "2019-12-12T14:46:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So, as a way of arguing the ‘inappropriateness’ of presenting veganism to 9 year-olds, we’ve thus far had comparisons to presentations about: food born deadly diseases, pro-gun advocacy, and now pro-life advocacy. > > Interesting to see the extent to which otherwise reasonable people will go when considering the subject of veganism and exposing the issues surrounding the meat industry to children. Seems to me, lunacy is not strictly limited to vegans. You’re entirely missing the point- it’s not the veganism. It’s the fact that it’s a controversial, polarizing issue that is essentially a political/social statement just like pro-gun advocacy, pro-life advocacy, or any other sort of advocacy/activism out there. The point is that activism of any sort isn’t something that should be being presented to third graders, and if it is, it desperately needs to be put in clear perspective with opposing viewpoints, etc… and NOT allowed to be wrapped up with the educational legitimacy of the school any more than any of the other advocacies we’ve mentioned in this thread. It’s essentially a form of proselytizing, and that ought to be off limits in elementary schools for sure, regardless of WHAT is being proselytized, because kids at that age are likely to draw the conclusion that if they’re being presented it in school as if it has official sanction, then it must be the truth. Which it isn’t- that’s still open for debate about ALL those things, veganism included. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/94 "2019-12-12T14:53:57Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Cool, cool. So I’m pro-life. I’m going to come to your child’s school and show them a few videos. I mean if 9 year olds are normally sexually active where you live, or subjected to marriage at that age, then sure (even though birth control in such circumstances is unlikely to be available at any age). But since they are a very low biological and social risk of experiencing pregnancy I might hold off on that for a couple more years. Then hell yes, fire up the film projector and give the 6th graders something to mull over. Children are generally more empathetic than adults, it might have a more profound impact on how seriously they take pregnancy control. 9 year olds do frequently eat meat, however. And they are able to make their own simple ethical decisions. Arm them to do so. Or keep them in the dark, I don’t care. Mine are already grown and know what the world is about. Or maybe I misread your post and you’re not getting the difference between taking the life of a human embryo/fetus for expedience and discarding the remains, and killing & butchering a cow for food. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/95 "2019-12-12T14:57:36Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You’re entirely missing the point- it’s not the veganism. It’s the fact that it’s a controversial, polarizing issue that is essentially a political/social statement just like pro-gun advocacy, pro-life advocacy, or any other sort of advocacy/activism out there. So…we should stop trying to get US Conservatives to tell the truth because that’s imposing one set of morals/ethics onto someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/96 "2019-12-12T15:22:13Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > So…we should stop trying to get US Conservatives to tell the truth because that’s imposing one set of morals/ethics onto someone else? Are they coming to my kids’ elementary school and explaining how tax cuts are the best way to help poor people? If so, than yes. We should stop that. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/97 "2019-12-12T15:22:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I mean, I’ve tried to teach my kids about the impeachment process, about the Syrian civil war, about immigration trends, about Medicaid, about the Leandro decision (NC’s court case about the NC constitutional right to a sound, basic education), and a lot more. I don’t mind ambitious teaching :). > > My concern is on bringing in an activist to teach the subject. Thanks. It’s good when somebody with experience in the topic being discussed contributes to a thread. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/98 "2019-12-12T15:51:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Could you tell us if you are for or against the type of presentation described by **elfkin477** being shown to 9 year olds? Already addressed by **Inigo Montoya**. But I’ll repeat if you like; If 9 year olds are engaged in sex and at risk of pregnancy, then yes, the baby mamas and baby daddies need to know where their baby is coming from and what their options are. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/99 "2019-12-12T16:00:56Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You’re entirely missing the point- it’s not the veganism. It’s the fact that it’s a controversial, polarizing issue that is essentially a political/social statement just like pro-gun advocacy, pro-life advocacy, or any other sort of advocacy/activism out there. > > The point is that activism of any sort isn’t something that should be being presented to third graders, and if it is, it desperately needs to be put in clear perspective with opposing viewpoints, etc… and NOT allowed to be wrapped up with the educational legitimacy of the school any more than any of the other advocacies we’ve mentioned in this thread. > > It’s essentially a form of proselytizing, and that ought to be off limits in elementary schools for sure, regardless of WHAT is being proselytized, because kids at that age are likely to draw the conclusion that if they’re being presented it in school as if it has official sanction, then it must be the truth. Which it isn’t- that’s still open for debate about ALL those things, veganism included. It’s no more a political statement than environmentalism and personal dietary choices. These are things everyone should be aware of and make informed decisions about. A 9 year old doesn’t have to decide to stop eating meat, but he or she should be given information to make that decision when they are ready, if they so choose. Also, the OP specifically said that this presentation was part of larger programme to introduce children to new ideas. A new idea was introduced. For ‘reasons’ it’s being treated like propaganda and equated with far more controversial and demonstrably inappropriate subjects. I’m not sure I understand why that is. Perhaps someone will explain the dangerous idea of less meat consumption and more food awareness to me. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704/100 "2019-12-12T16:04:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Already addressed by **Inigo Montoya**. But I’ll repeat if you like; If 9 year olds are engaged in sex and at risk of pregnancy, then yes, the baby mamas and baby daddies need to know where their baby is coming from and what their options are. Thanks for answering. Does this mean that you don’t think sex ed should be taught until the kids are engaged in sex and at risk of pregnancy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ok-to-present-veganism-to-9-year-olds/844704.md?page=6)