# Is it okay to encourage a child who chooses to be transexual? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021 "2009-05-19T22:55:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/181 "2009-05-21T16:57:01Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I still can’t help but think that this whole thing is political correctness gone crazy. If if I thought I was a horse, and truly wanted to be a horse, that doesn’t make it so, and no amount of encouragement by my friends and family, surgeries or false manes would make me a horse. I have no biological basis for saying “this is why Ed thinks he’s a horse.” Of course, I have no biological basis for saying “this is why were are conscious” or “this is why we have emotions” or “this is why we have a sense of beauty.” I must therefore conclude that because we are conscious, because we have emotions, because we perceive beauty, it’s also remotely possible that a vanishingly small percentage of human minds are mis-wired to produce some kind of gender and/or species dysphoria. The phenomenon _seems_ real enough and there’s no objective science for dismissing the potential. Indeed, there is science to suggest that gender dysphoria is real; I have pointed out studies in this thread already. Political correctness gone mad? Not at all. Many transgendered people fall into dark despair and suicide. It hardly seems like it’s just a flight of fancy to them. What we know about the workings of the mind is about what we know of sea life: only the shelves close to shore. There’s a whole deep ocean out there at which we can only guess. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/182 "2009-05-21T17:00:47Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > What about breasts? I’d think that a female bodied person who identifies as a man would prefer not to go through that part of puberty. It’s also hard to look good as a guy if you’ve got obvious breasts. Many FtMs eventually wind up having a double mastectomy, but it must be a lot easier to just never develop breasts in the first place. I’m sure some have trouble. My friend bound her chest and wasn’t very big to begin with. The point is, it’s reversible (removable). Broad shoulders and masculine facial features, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/183 "2009-05-21T17:07:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So… God created man as _male and female?_ Together? One body? Everyone started out as hermaphrodites? Or didn’t you realize that that could be read in that manner? IIRC, there’s a midrash on this passage that teaches exactly that - G-d created the first human being with two body fronts, one male and one female, which then split apart. This midrash is used to explain heterosexual attraction, and also to explain why some couples are so very strongly attracted to one another (their souls were originally one, before they were divided and placed into bodies). ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/184 "2009-05-21T17:16:59Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I still can’t help but think that this whole thing is political correctness gone crazy. If if I thought I was a horse, and truly wanted to be a horse, that doesn’t make it so, and no amount of encouragement by my friends and family, surgeries or false manes would make me a horse. No philosophical discussion about how just because I am genetically a human being, I can still be a horse in spirit or in some other abstract sense, will make me a horse. > > The only thing is that longing to be a horse is not in favor with the elites, so if that were the case, the mental health professionals would have me locked in one of those rooms with a doorknob on one side only. But since destroying gender roles and identities is en vogue nowadays, then these people don’t get the mental help that they need.. There are sound biological (physiological and psychological) bases for handling transgenderism as condition that can be treated with a combination of hormone therapy, surgery, and counseling. There are no sound biological bases to support treating the assertion “I believe I am a horse” as anything other than mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/185 "2009-05-21T17:26:46Z")
Wanting to be a woman or a man isn’t like wanting to be a horse. And of course clothing and surgery can’t completely transform you into the other gender. There’s no magic wand. No one knows this better than transsexual people. But what alternative is there? You can force them to live as their birth gender, but you can’t force them to be happy living that way. And so if someone prefers to wear dresses and lipstick instead of a suit and tie, you can think that person is just fooling themselves, but so what? In some sense, I can understand. If I woke up tomorrow and were magically transformed into a woman, I don’t think I’d run out to get surgery to try to transform myself into a man. I’d learn to live with it. But I’d wear the same sorts of clothing I wear now, I’d do the same sorts of activities I do now, I’d keep my same name, and I wouldn’t want to be referred to by feminine pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![Giltathriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b38774/32.png) [@Giltathriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giltathriel)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/186 "2009-05-21T18:29:18Z")
[This article](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/transgender-children) gives an overview of the issues involved here. On page 3 it discusses a study from the 80s on highly effeminate boys, some of whom later grew up to identify as homosexual rather than transgender. I hadn’t considered that as a possibility before. If it were my child, I’d want to wait until they hit puberty to make any permanent changes, but before then? I guess I’d let them dress and play how they liked at home but the cruelty of the other children would make me reluctant to let him or her out in public like that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/187 "2009-05-21T19:23:57Z")
Oh man, that article makes me so sad – I hope things turn out okay for Tina and her family. ---
**Author:** ![Giltathriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b38774/32.png) [@Giltathriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giltathriel)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/188 "2009-05-21T19:35:18Z")
Me too. This is such a tough issue. Maybe the best solution here is to have the gender roles be more forgiving. Our culture will probably get there eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/189 "2009-05-21T19:49:41Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I still can’t help but think that this whole thing is political correctness gone crazy. If if I thought I was a horse, and truly wanted to be a horse, that doesn’t make it so, and no amount of encouragement by my friends and family, surgeries or false manes would make me a horse. No philosophical discussion about how just because I am genetically a human being, I can still be a horse in spirit or in some other abstract sense, will make me a horse. > > The only thing is that longing to be a horse is not in favor with the elites, so if that were the case, the mental health professionals would have me locked in one of those rooms with a doorknob on one side only. But since destroying gender roles and identities is en vogue nowadays, then these people don’t get the mental help that they need.. Nonsense. Gender identity isn’t about your wang. It’s about the lens you view the world through and how people treat you. The horse analogy is beyond stupid. People aren’t born horses. They are born male, female or on rare occasions something else. If someone has a physical condition that makes them feel female when they have a penis, to treat them as a man would be the action of a simpleton asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/190 "2009-05-21T19:56:00Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Example: I was born extremely smart and incredibly good looking. I wasn’t, but I really, really, really think that I am. Does that make it so? According to this thread, yes. It does. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/191 "2009-05-21T20:09:02Z")
As I’ve tried to point out, the issue over whether a transsexual can “really” change their sex is a red herring. It doesn’t matter whether a transsexual is a woman, or a man wearing a dress and lipstick. What matters is how we treat that person. You can think that person is still really a man. But if you met a man who wore a dress and wanted to be called “Susan”, would you refuse to call them Susan? Would you laugh at them and quote Bible verses? Would you drag them out to a deserted alley and beat them to death? Or would you mentally roll your eyes and call the person Susan and get on with your life? You don’t have to agree that Susan is really a woman, but why would you make a big deal out of it? Even if you thought Susan would be happier if they gave up the delusion that they are a woman, so what? All you have to acknowledge is that they are happier acting as if they were female rather than male. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/192 "2009-05-21T20:11:04Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > > [@SteveG1](#): > > > > Example: I was born extremely smart and incredibly good looking. I didn’t decide to be so great, I just am. 🆒 > > I wasn’t, but I really, really, really think that I am. Does that make it so? According to this thread, yes. It does. No, it means that with enough money, medication, and surgery, your outside may be able to match your opinion of yourself. Millions of people have already taken advantage of this technology, but you may not have heard about it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/193 "2009-05-21T20:15:28Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > I wasn’t, but I really, really, really think that I am. Does that make it so? According to this thread, yes. It does. Your brain alone can’t do it – but medical science can. Ever heard of a little thing called “cosmetic surgery?” And to make yourself smarter – go to school, study, educate yourself, yada yada yada. EVERYONE can do that. **Lemur866** , would if it were only that! The problem is when people like the OP have children, who turn out to be trans. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/194 "2009-05-21T20:18:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Nonsense. Gender identity isn’t about your wang. It’s about the lens you view the world through and how people treat you. The horse analogy is beyond stupid. People aren’t born horses. They are born male, female or on rare occasions something else. If someone has a physical condition that makes them feel female when they have a penis, to treat them as a man would be the action of a simpleton asshole. So is every man who feels like a woman really a woman, or are there some that are really men who have a mental illness which makes them think that? If there are some, how do you determine which is which? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/195 "2009-05-21T20:28:27Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If there are some, how do you determine which is which? Not to interrupt anyone’s argument over whether people have a right to decide whether they’re a horse or not… But I have a related question the the quoted text. It has been earlier stated that there is a physical difference between the male brain and the female brain, which occasionally is out of synch with the overt sexual characteristics, even in cases where the overt sexual characteristics and the XX or XY line up neatly. (Or at least I think this has been said.) My question is, what _is_ this physical difference in the brains, and can it be detected by an MRI or something? (That is, without killing or maiming the person.) You’d think that if a concrete way existed to determing if you’re dealing with a whim or a permanent biological condition it would be quite helpful in deciding wether to use gender-effecting treatments on minors. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/196 "2009-05-21T20:31:03Z")
> [@Giltathriel](#): > > [This article](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/transgender-children) gives an overview of the issues involved here. On page 3 it discusses a study from the 80s on highly effeminate boys, some of whom later grew up to identify as homosexual rather than transgender. I hadn’t considered that as a possibility before. Ah, yes, they aren’t really the other gender, they’re just plain ol’ gay. How boring. How un-dramatic. Why is it that we see males who are sexually attracted to other males(i.e. homosexual males) “transitioning” into “females”… who are then still sexually attracted to males? (In other words, heterosexual “females”.) And females who are sexually attracted to other females (i.e. homosexual females) “transitioning” into “males”… who are then still sexually attracted to females. (In other words, heterosexual “males”.) Why is it that we do not see heterosexual males “transitioning” into “females”… who are then still sexually attracted to females? In other words, we don’t see heterosexual males transitioning into homosexual “females”. Or heterosexual females “transitioning” into “males”… who are then still sexually attracted to males. In other words, we don’t see heterosexual females transitioning into homosexual “males”. And as for the medical studies and the 8-year old boy who begat this thread… the “proof” so far is the hypothalamus, which can’t be studied on this boy until he’s dead, and the little boy’s own opinion of himself. OK, at 8 years old I thought I was going to grow up to be Superman. Children at this age often don’t actually know what they’re going to grow up to be. Yes, the little boy is obviously confused, has some issues, and could probably benefit from therapy (psychological, not hormonal), but I strongly suspect he’s just plain ol’ gay. Of course there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just so \ passe. Much more trendy (and attention grabbing!) these days to be “transgendered”. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/197 "2009-05-21T20:33:15Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So is every man who feels like a woman really a woman, or are there some that are really men who have a mental illness which makes them think that? > > If there are some, how do you determine which is which? It’s up to the person’s doctor to determine that. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/198 "2009-05-21T20:36:23Z")
It’s TRENDY to be trans? Well, slap a dick on me and call me George 'cause here I am still watching reality TV and wearing maxi dresses. I knew I was out of the loop. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/199 "2009-05-21T20:40:10Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Why is it that we do not see heterosexual males “transitioning” into “females”… who are then still sexually attracted to females? In other words, we don’t see heterosexual males transitioning into homosexual “females”. Or heterosexual females “transitioning” into “males”… who are then still sexually attracted to males. In other words, we don’t see heterosexual females transitioning into homosexual “males”. We do see this. You just don’t hear about it, for the same reasons you don’t hear about the sexual orientation of other people whom you _don’t know from Adam_. You may be surprised to learn that most transgendered people, having transitioned, just go on living without a whole lot of fanfare. Transgendered individuals, for the most part, do NOT become the well-publicized subjects of books, magazine articles, or daytime talk shows. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021/200 "2009-05-21T20:43:19Z")
**cwthree** and **Guinastasia** , how dare you! How \*dare \*you! The way I self-identify is the way you are _obligated_ treat me! If you don’t treat me as smart and handsome (and witty, I’m witty too) then you’re being… what is it again? > [@Lobohan](#): > > a simpleton asshole. Right. That. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-okay-to-encourage-a-child-who-chooses-to-be-transexual/497021.md?page=11)