# Is it possible for someone, by virtue of special training, to become a lethal weapon?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [January 13, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419 "2008-01-13T22:51:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 12
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/1 "2008-01-13T22:51:57Z")
I had a discussion regarding martial arts and combatives training today. Asked “If you get \_\_\_\_\_ training, are you considered a lethal weapon?” I said that I think that’s just some people say, sorta tongue-in-cheek and there’s no such thing as a person (or any of their body parts) being a legal lethal weapon. The others insisted that they “knew it was true”, offering various kinds of ‘proof’ including:
1. Mike Tyson was charged with assault with a deadly weapon for beating up a guy in a bar.
2. His Vietnam-vet father seriously beat a man (also in a bar) and was let off on account of his documented PTSD.
3. Black belt attainers are listed in the newspaper and go into a special ledger that records such “lethal weapon” people for future law enforcement reference.
4. If [insert famous fighter] beats up a person, they’d be treated harsher than you or me doing the same.
5. Teachers can’t teach, stores can serve alcohol, and boxers can’t box without certain certifications. So the law treats some with training differently.
My rebuttals:
1. Given that this is true (I’m no Tyson biographer), Tyson’s fists may be considered deadly, but that isn’t because of his training. It’s because of the way he used them that made him deadly. There was a 15 yr old kid that used a shoe to hit a guy and HE was charged with assault w/ DW. No special training required there.
2. What does a psych evaluation tell us about being a lethal weapon? That’s totally inapplicable to the training he received.
3. Sounds like an urban legend to me.
4. A judge’s strictness/leniency in a case doesn’t tell us about what legislators put in the books. If I’m an honor student, I may get some leeway with minor offenses, but that doesn’t mean that “honor students can commit crimes”. Some say that blacks are treated harsher in a court of law, but we’re debating the law, not the cases.
5. This mixes business regulation with criminal prosecution. Those aren’t even close to the same thing. One is getting a permit to meet codes required by law, one is assault and battery charges based on your training.
What I’m saying, Dopers, is that if you and I commit the same battery crime, we’re charged with the same thing, under the same law than a black belt or UFC champ. Am I right or does Johnny Law care where you learned to commit your crime?
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/2 "2008-01-13T23:32:25Z")
While I think your basic intuition on the question is accurate, it is important to remember that one’s background can be used to establish all kinds of things. For example, a background in the martial arts could be used to establish knowledge that a certain strike (say, a kidney strike) could do permanent damage. Similarly, just as the defendant’s physical size can be used in the calculation of necessary force in a self-defense situation, so too can martial training. I imagine the discussion of martial arts training in these circumstances accounts for much of the modern legend.
On the more general question of hands/feet as deadly weapons, state courts are split pretty evenly. Some say that a blow from a hand can be assault with a deadly weapon in the right circumstances. Others, like this court, disagree, saying:
> [@](#):
>
> [T]here is no logical stopping point in a dangerous weapon analysis when one is allowed to consider parts of the anatomy as possible dangerous weapons. For example, persons skilled in the martial arts or boxing have been trained to use various parts of their bodies to inflict [\*\*\*22] grievous injury or even to kill. Because the determination that something is a dangerous weapon does not require actual injury to the victim by its use, such persons could be considered as always possessing dangerous weapons. Thus, such persons could be convicted of aggravated offenses even if they do not injure their victims or cause great bodily harm. We recognize that this is a logical extreme, but it illustrates the fact that there is no logical stopping point in a dangerous weapon analysis when one is allowed to consider parts of the anatomy as possible dangerous weapons, especially in the absence of injury to the victim. We therefore conclude that the better rule of law is to restrict the definition of dangerous weapon to animate or inanimate objects that are not part of the defendant’s anatomy and allow for aggravation of offenses where defendants inflicted injuries with their hands, feet or teeth based upon the degree of harm the victims suffered.
State v. Frey, 178 Wis. 2d 729, 744 (Wis. Ct. App. 1993).
Those courts that do accept that the body itself can be a deadly weapon do not require the defendant to have had any special training. For example, from Rhode Island:
> [@](#):
>
> The evidence establishes that Zangrilli did not assault Ann Marie with any kind of instrument other than his bare hands. On appeal he argues that his conviction for assault with a dangerous weapon cannot be sustained because he has had no training in the martial arts, boxing, or in any other specialized field to justify classifying his hands as a lethal or dangerous weapon. This argument is without merit.
State v. Zangrilli, 440 A.2d 710, 711 (R.I. 1982).
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/3 "2008-01-13T23:41:33Z")
Somehow I managed to post all that without adding the most important part: I didn’t find any cases in which the court used someone’s martial arts training to establish that the defendant’s body was a deadly weapon. As you predicted, the focus is on the nature of the criminal conduct itself. Such cases could be out there, but I couldn’t find them (in my 20 min. of research).
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2008, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/4 "2008-01-14T00:32:22Z")
Previous thread on similar topic:
[Hands are lethal weapons?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8043521)
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### Author:  [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2008, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/5 "2008-01-14T06:39:55Z")
I read the previous thread but it’s on a slightly different issue. It asks whether hands and feet can be considered deadly weapons. I admit, however, that they can be. My question is whether training factored in to the legal interpretation of this term.
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/6 "2008-01-14T17:04:25Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier]
I read the previous thread but it’s on a slightly different issue. It asks whether hands and feet can be considered deadly weapons. I admit, however, that they can be. My question is whether training factored in to the legal interpretation of this term.
[/QUOTE]
Depends on what you mean by “factored in.” Can it be considered? Sure. Is it definitive? Not really. In my fair state, a deadly weapon is defined as “(A) a firearm or anything manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting death or serious bodily injury" or “(B) anything that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury.” Courts here have translated deadly weapon findings very broadly, so yes, a martial artist’s hands could be potential deadly weapons. They again, so could your hands, your car, a pencil, a beer bottle, an ashtray, and the Oscar for best picture of 2002. If you and a trained martial artist or fighter come to Texas and give someone the exact same inch-of-their-life beating with your fists, you’ll probably both be charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. Will the district attorney present evidence that the defendant is a trained martial artist so as to strengthen their argument as to the deadly weapon finding? Yes, probably. You’ll still both be charged with the same thing, though.
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### Author:  [@iwakura43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iwakura43)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/7 "2008-01-14T19:28:44Z")
I remember a case of a beating where the guy’s sneakers were considered a “deadly weapon.” Sneakers are not inherently any more of a weapon than one’s feet, so I think that’s getting pretty close.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/8 "2008-01-14T23:07:38Z")
If you mean the Jena Six, I was under the impression that the six-to-one ratio of attackers to attacked was the “deadly force”, not the shoes they were wearing.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/9 "2008-01-15T01:15:31Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan]
If you mean the Jena Six, I was under the impression that the six-to-one ratio of attackers to attacked was the “deadly force”, not the shoes they were wearing.
Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]
Nope.
> [@](#):
>
> The aggravated battery charge against Bell involved the use of a dangerous weapon. Although no evidence of a gun, knife or other weapon was introduced, Walters argued, and the jury agreed, that the tennis shoes Bell was wearing at the time of the attack qualified as a dangerous weapon.
[http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-jena\_witt.1jun29,1,1872156.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-jena_witt.1jun29,1,1872156.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true)
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/10 "2008-01-15T01:35:26Z")
The link doesn’t load without registration, but I will take your word for it.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/11 "2008-01-15T01:41:09Z")
That’s odd. I’m not registered and it loads just fine for me.
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### Author:  [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2008, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-by-virtue-of-special-training-to-become-a-lethal-weapon/433419/12 "2008-01-15T01:48:37Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier]
1. Black belt attainers are listed in the newspaper and go into a special ledger that records such “lethal weapon” people for future law enforcement reference.
training required there.
[/QUOTE]
LMAO. That’s a funny one. FYI, when I was much younger and in much better shape, I trained for many years and got a black belt in karate. And however hard I worked for it, and however honored I was that my instructor thought I deserved the belt, there’s no official registry of it ANYWHERE, there are certainly no local or national legal standards that must be attained to get to that ranking, and there is no registry. Nor was I ever listed in the newspaper, even as a local interest story. The only proof it ever happened is my word, my fellow students, and a dusty old belt in my closet.
FYI – there are plenty of “belt factories” that crank out high level belts to top paying students. When I was 12, and had been doing martial arts for just 4 or 5 months, one of my teacher’s former students came in. She had left just as I joined, and when she left she was a yellow belt (virtual beginner). She came back a brown belt (just before black belt) from another school. My teacher laughed and said she hadn’t earned that belt, that it took years to earn. She said it was legit.
So he had her spar against me. Sure, girl v boy, but she was about two years older than I was and had a brown belt, versus my absolute beginner yellow belt. And there were several female students in our class who were EXCELLENT and would have wiped the floor with me.
The match was very close. (No hard hitting, just simple sparring). Let’s just say he made it clear to her that she was no brown belt, no matter what the new school said. We never saw her again.
I can guess she had a black belt the following month or two. And I can promise you it didn’t give her lethal weapon status on any planet nearby.