# Is it possible for someone in a persistent vegetative state to commit a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908 "2011-07-21T22:01:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908/41 "2011-07-22T19:58:35Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Still not a lawyer… > > In the US, I believe that there are only a few types of debts that, if unpaid, can lead to prison, but those are considered illegal under different theories. > > I believe that failure to pay child support is a crime, under the theory that failure to pay it per se constitutes child neglect or abuse, so the person would be charged under a child abuse/neglect statute rather than a general “Fail to pay Lawful Debt” statute. > > I remember reading that, in at least one state of the US, a merchant that fails to remit sales tax collected from purchases has committed Embezzlement against the State, because the tax money was never the merchant’s money to begin with, it was collected by the merchant as a trustee/agent from the customer on behalf of the State. > > I don’t know what mens rea are required for the above offenses. There’s one more: failure to pay a fine ordered by a judge can be contempt, which is punishable by jail time. But not paying your utility bill will not land you in jail. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908/42 "2011-07-22T23:26:02Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Nope. Failure to file has to be willful. > > [http://www.justice.gov/tax/readingroom/2008ctm/CTM%20JI%20-%20Title%2026.htm#TOC2\_72](http://www.justice.gov/tax/readingroom/2008ctm/CTM%20JI%20-%20Title%2026.htm#TOC2_72) Yep. Not only is it not criminal, the vegetative person is probably not even on the hook for penalties. Being in a coma is about the best “reasonable cause” that ever existed to excuse late filing, late payment, ignoring letters, etc, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908/43 "2011-07-23T00:51:42Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > There have been cases in the past where courts have ruled this way. It seems unjust, but the court reasoned that the needs of the child outweigh the rights of the father. I’ll let others provide links to the news stories. My thread [What Would Happen Legally if a Female Got Pregnant with Involuntarily Stolen Sperm?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=604611&highlight=sperm) fits the bill for this. Call it ridiculous, but if you are the proven biological father, you can be on the hook in real life regardless of what you did and cites are given by others in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908/44 "2011-07-23T00:58:28Z")
> [@David42](#): > > There aren’t any strict liability crimes that a person in a coma could commit, they all involve some kind of action taken. Vehicular manslaughter for instance. No mens rea, but the GIAC can’t drive the car. Maybe in the real-life sense but what is the real difference between a person in a coma and a person that lives away from a piece of property they own that another person plants a marijuana crop on? You can certainly get nailed for the latter and there is no action the landowner did other than own the land. They are called strict liability laws for a reason. You don’t have to do anything other than be the legal owner of property contraband is found on. That can apply to house, your car, or land. No sane court would prosecute a person in a coma for it but it has happened to people that were walking around and equally oblivious to the crime they were charged with. Being ignorant of how it got there isn’t a defense for that. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908/45 "2011-07-23T02:57:52Z")
Yes, there are cases once in a while where male rape victims get held liable for child support. The usual scenario is that a 14 or 15 year old boy is seduced by a girl who is over 18 who then gets pregnant. > [@](#): > > Jack from Michigan wonders why my report didn’t include State ex rel. Hermesmann v. Seyer (1993). When I read it, I wondered the same thing. In Hermesmann, a 12-year old boy had a sexual relationship with his babysitter. The state said the tweenaged dad was liable for child support even though all agreed the baby resulted from statutory rape. Reviewing cases from Wisconsin and Colorado that imposed child support obligations on underage fathers, the court noted: “We conclude that the issue of consent to sexual activity under the criminal statutes is irrelevant in a civil action to determine paternity and for support of the minor child of such activity.” This is a broader conclusion than that reached by the other courts, which had focused on the minor’s actual consent — they said it’s one thing to hold the perpetrator liable for statutory rape based on the legal irrelevance of consent and quite another to excuse the victim from obligations based on actual consent. Hermesmann suggests even a forcible rape of a boy could result in a child support award. > **[Can a sperm donor be forced to pay child support?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343973/can-a-sperm-donor-be-forced-to-pay-child-support)** > > A STAFF REPORT FROM THE STRAIGHT DOPE SCIENCE ADVISORY BOARD ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908/46 "2011-07-23T14:51:19Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > If the person set up a booby-trap in their house, walked outside and had a stroke that put them into a persistent vegetative state, and then a year later someone triggered the booby-trap and was killed, that would be a crime committed by the coma-dude. It doesn’t become a crime until the trap is triggered. I think this is a good idea as to how it might happen. The person commits an act (or omission) with the requisite mens rea for an offense, but the crime is not “complete” as a matter of law until something else happens as a result of the perp’s actions, but that second thing is slow in coming, to the point where the perp has fallen into a coma by the time it happens. Another idea in the same vein: Perp is in a gunfight with police. He has no legal justification to defend himself against the police. Perp wounds Cop 1, who wounds Perp. Both are taken to the hospital. At 6 PM, Perp falls into a persistent coma due to the wounds he sustained in the gunfight. At 7 PM, Cop 1 dies from his wounds. So, at 7 PM, Perp’s Murder of Cop 1 “completes” (since if the cop had lived, it would not have been Murder) Depending on whether or not the Perp is culpable for whatever put him into a coma, he might raise a defense that the coma prevented him from rescuing the victim and so he shouldn’t be convicted of murder. I don’t know if that would be accepted (probably not). ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908/47 "2011-07-23T17:02:37Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I believe that failure to pay child support is a crime, under the theory that failure to pay it per se constitutes child neglect or abuse, so the person would be charged under a child abuse/neglect statute rather than a general “Fail to pay Lawful Debt” statute. > > I don’t know what mens rea are required for the above offenses. Only in certain instances is failure to pay child support a crime. A father out of work can only be held in contempt of court, which although it throws him in jail just the same, is not criminal in nature. To be charged with a crime you’d have to have plenty of money to support your child with. And you’d also have to do more than flout the court’s orders. A person who takes their child to their home and lavishes them but ignores court orders can’t be said to be abandoning or neglecting the child. The same for people who give their exes cash but won’t pay through the court. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908/48 "2011-07-23T17:20:10Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Only in certain instances is failure to pay child support a crime. A father out of work can only be held in contempt of court, which although it throws him in jail just the same, is not criminal in nature. > > To be charged with a crime you’d have to have plenty of money to support your child with. And you’d also have to do more than flout the court’s orders. A person who takes their child to their home and lavishes them but ignores court orders can’t be said to be abandoning or neglecting the child. The same for people who give their exes cash but won’t pay through the court. Believe it or not, people can be and are prosecuted for criminal non-payment of child support. And sometimes, “inability to pay” is no defense. That’s what the trial court apparently held in _People v. Likine_ and the ruling was affirmed on appeal. > [@](#): > > On September 29, 2008, the prosecution filed a motion in limine seeking to prevent defendant from offering any evidence pertaining to her alleged inability to pay the ordered child support. The prosecution argued that, as this Court held in People v Adams, 262 Mich App 89; 683 NW2d 729 (2004), the failure to pay child support in violation of MCL 750.165 is a strict liability offense; thus, evidence of an alleged inability to pay is immaterial and irrelevant. The trial court agreed and granted the motion in limine, holding that "inability to pay is not a defense ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908/49 "2011-07-23T19:59:49Z")
For those interested, the Pedro Almodovar 1992 film _Talk to Her_–which won the screenplay Oscar–has not one but two vegetative state young women, one of whom is the consuming love of the protagonist. Eventually we see what is assumed to be his making gentle love with her. We next see him in prison for rape. Actually a semi thought provoking film. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-for-someone-in-a-persistent-vegetative-state-to-commit-a-crime/589908.md?page=2)