If you can’t be tried for the crime, was the crime ever committed?
I have almost zero knowledge of the law. Could that not be considered theft of services, or does that require more intent than in the scenario given? Suppose Mr. Potato Head hires Joe Blow to paint his house next Tuesday with the check to be sent Wednesday after inspection of the work, then gets run over by a toy train on Monday and ends up in a coma which is later reclassified as PVS. Joe Blow, thinking Mr. Head is at work that day, paints the house and awaits his payment, to no avail. Has a crime occurred?
In the case of someone who unlawfully enters a house through a second story window at night, it would be a Schrödinger’s Cat Burglary. This would be in an entangled state where it is simultaneously a crime and not a crime.
Indecent Exposure? Obstructing Traffic?
Certainly. Happens all the time.
Lee Harvey Oswald could not be tried, but President Kennedy was certainly assassinated.
Nobody was ever identified or tried as the burglar of my house, but the crime of burglary was certainly committed.
It seems to me that examples where pre-vegetative state conduct later forms elements of a crime is not true to the spirit of the the question.
The challenge is to find a crime where the person acts completely innocently before entering a vegetative state but still commits a crime afterwards, I think I have found something:
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A girl sneaks into the (male) person’s hospital room, masturbates him to ejaculation, and uses his ejaculate to inseminate herself.
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The girl bears a child, files a paternity suit against Mr. Vegetative, and obtains a default judgment ordering him to pay child support.
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Mr. Vegetative fails to make the payments.
Although it seems monstrously unjust, there really does exist authority which says that inability to pay is not a valid defense to a prosecution for criminal nonpayment of child support. There is also legal authority that a sexual assault victim is potentially liable for child support if he fathers a child as a result of the assault.
As a practical matter, I doubt anyone would prosecute in these circumstances, and if they did, the Courts would probably hold that it’s a due process violation, but still it seems theoretically possible.
Wouldn’t those be examples of how you could frame the PVS person, not examples of crimes that person commits?
IANAL.
Well, we as a society have decided that criminal courts of competent jurisdiction are the location where it is determined, as a matter of law, whether a person has committed a crime. Your little sister is not qualified to monitor financial transactions and determine which ones constitute Money Laundering.
So, in a sense, if the person is not competent to stand trial, whether or not they really committed (or omitted) all of the elements of a criminal offense, and lacked any affirmative defenses, is an open question.
Loitering.
ETA: ::Shakes fist at Octans!::
ETA[sup]2[/sup]: trespassing
ETA[sup]3[/sup]: practicing law without a license
You miss the point.
It’s evident someone in a vegetative state will not be able to stand trial, being mentally incompetent and unable to understand the nature of the charges against them and so forth.
ETA: If you can’t be tried for a crime, the question begs itself. Really no different than a tree in a forest falling down with nobody around to hear it…of course it makes noise
jtgain’s taking INternational Law this semester!
Anyway, I too think that the only real crimes at issue are the ones where the guy set a trap (or mailed a letter bomb, etc.) at t0, lost brain funtion at t1, and then the trap was sprung at t2.
There are some strict liability crimes that might fit the bill, but the kind of SL crimes I’m anticipating aren’t real crimes; they’re administrative regulations posing as crimes because it’s easier for the government to manage them that way. Failing to file a tax return is the one example that came immediately to mind. (Is that even a crime? If not, I’m sure some filing requirements have criminal penalties – maybe EPA stuff, if he’s the owner of a chemical plant.)
–Cliffy
Would a rape victim (he never gave consent) be liable for child support that arises as a result of the rape?
Nope. Failure to file has to be willful.
http://www.justice.gov/tax/readingroom/2008ctm/CTM%20JI%20-%20Title%2026.htm#TOC2_72
Domestic law in my state does not contemplate that a man can be raped. I doubt it does in any other.
Rape is usually defined as involving some sort of penetration of a body cavity. You describe a sexual assault, not a rape.
It would be an interesting case. I don’t think it has happened outside Babylonian/Assyrian/Eqyptian religious mythology (Isis impregnating herself with a mock phallus).
There aren’t any strict liability crimes that a person in a coma could commit, they all involve some kind of action taken. Vehicular manslaughter for instance. No mens rea, but the GIAC can’t drive the car.
This thread has so many ridiculous ideas in it, I am surprised to see it here.
The answer is NO, the GIAC can’t commit a crime in the vegetative state. Period.
He can’t be lawfully prosecuted for crimes committed before he entered the vegetative state because you have to be conscious to be prosecuted. How would he plea for instance, be informed of the charge, etc.? He is certainly not competent to be tried.
I wouldn’t suggest a vegetative state as a way to beat the system, however.
There have been cases in the past where courts have ruled this way. It seems unjust, but the court reasoned that the needs of the child outweigh the rights of the father. I’ll let others provide links to the news stories.
In general, government regulations make a clear distinction between violations of regulations (a civil/administrative matter where you can only be fined and/or ordered to fix things) and criminal acts, which require conscious intent. The IRS example is a good one-- if you accidentally don’t file taxes, the IRS can penalize you, but they can only throw you in jail on a criminal charge if you knew what you were supposed to do and intentionally didn’t do it. EPA will be similar.
So it’s quite possible for the comatose person to be in (civil/adminstrative) violation of all kinds of regulations, but I can’t imagine how they could be criminally charged.
Do they still have debtor’s prison where you live?
OK. The Person in a Vegetative State (PVS) is thrown off a ten story apartment building. On the way down, he’s killed by a shotgun blast from one of the apartments . . .
Still not a lawyer…
In the US, I believe that there are only a few types of debts that, if unpaid, can lead to prison, but those are considered illegal under different theories.
I believe that failure to pay child support is a crime, under the theory that failure to pay it per se constitutes child neglect or abuse, so the person would be charged under a child abuse/neglect statute rather than a general “Fail to pay Lawful Debt” statute.
I remember reading that, in at least one state of the US, a merchant that fails to remit sales tax collected from purchases has committed Embezzlement against the State, because the tax money was never the merchant’s money to begin with, it was collected by the merchant as a trustee/agent from the customer on behalf of the State.
I don’t know what mens rea are required for the above offenses.