# Is it possible some Dinosaurs still existed during the Dark Ages? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 4, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800 "2017-08-04T20:08:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/81 "2017-08-06T00:30:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If I had asked you this same question about the coelacanth in 1937, what would you have said? The coelacanth is an order, not a species. There are no living ancient coelacanth species. There are living members of the order that was thought to be extinct. It’s really not that different from redefining birds as a kind of dinosaur, and saying all the ancient species are extinct but the order is not. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I don’t think I have a [Rai stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones) in my pants pocket, but I did once find a buffalo nickel in my change jar, so who knows?.. I enjoy getting very worn Buffalo nickels and Indian Head pennies, that are worth, like, 20 cents or less, and putting them into circlulation. Some of them don’t have dates, and are worth face value. I am on my son’s tablet because my laptop is broken, and autocorrect is making me crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/82 "2017-08-06T02:33:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not a huge sauropod, sure. But one of the small feathered warmblooded ones? Why not? Fine, keep on entertaining your belief in gods of the gaps. I bet there is also a cave in the Himalayas where there are remnant pelycosars. Why not? And tiny pterodons live in the top of giant redwoods. You can’t prove they don’t! And there is a tidepool in Taiwan with trilobites! Prove to me that there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/83 "2017-08-06T02:45:50Z")
That’s not God of the gaps. As I think you know, God of the gaps refers to the insistence that evolution by natural selection is insufficient to explain the fossil record, which contains “gaps”, and thus proves God exists and plays a role in evolution. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/84 "2017-08-06T03:26:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > thus proves God exists and plays a role in evolution. Surely Southern Baptists don’t buy that. A Catholic priest in high school told me that he believed that G-d gave animals the ability to change to suit their environment. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/85 "2017-08-06T03:52:49Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Fine, keep on entertaining your belief in gods of the gaps. I bet there is also a cave in the Himalayas where there are remnant pelycosars. Why not? And tiny pterodons live in the top of giant redwoods. You can’t prove they don’t! And there is a tidepool in Taiwan with trilobites! Prove to me that there isn’t. Look I am just saying there are millions of (avian) dinosaurs around today. And crocodiles are also very successful. There is no reason why a small feathered warmblooded dino could not have survived. True, I doubt highly if any did survive- but that is different. Saying no dinosaurs _could_ have survived is clearly false, as I see dozens in my backyard every day. I just had one for dinner too. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/86 "2017-08-06T04:10:59Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > If that isn’t clear enough for you, then you seem to be a lost cause for even the most basic level of scientific understanding. As an actual scientist, I can say that this is utter nonsense. There is nothing to say that a small dinosaur could not have survived in (say) the Amazon rainforest or some remote island up until fairly recent times. We have the example of the [Tuatara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatara), the only surviving member of what was [once a diverse order of reptiles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhynchocephalia), most of which became extinct at the same time as the dinosaurs, but which has persisted in New Zealand. The [Moas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moa) of New Zealand and the [Elephant Bird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_bird) of Madagascar were very large and for all intents and purposes the equivalent of medium sized non-avian dinosaurs (and in fact were large avian dinosaurs). They survived into historic times and were only wiped out when humans reached their islands. Some think the Elephant Bird is the source of accounts of a mythological creature, the Roc (_rukh_) of Sinbad. There is absolutely no reason a small dinosaur could not have survived in Madagascar in a similar fashion. I agree that the possibility of a large non-avian dinosaur surviving into antiquity and inspiring the myth of dragons not plausible, but we do have an example of an avian dinosaur surviving into historical times and inspiring accounts of a large mythological creature. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/87 "2017-08-06T09:16:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not God of the gaps. As I think you know, God of the gaps refers to the insistence that evolution by natural selection is insufficient to explain the fossil record, which contains “gaps”, and thus proves God exists and plays a role in evolution. I was making an analogy. As the surface of the Earth becomes more and more well known and explored, the gaps where “here they be dragons” (or lake monsters, or bigfeet) becomes. Yes, you can’t absolutely fundamentally rule out that the mythical monster once claimed to cover the world has its last remnant in tha unexplored weedy spot in your cousin Fred’s back yard, but you would probably have more productive uses of your time than looking for it. It is like those people still trying to build cold fusion reactors and perpetual motion machines-- they are vastly more likely to be Bozo the Clown than Galileo. ---
**Author:** ![abashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@abashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abashed)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/88 "2017-08-06T09:20:00Z")
I found this on Wikipedia: “There is no evidence that late Maastrichtian (72.1 to 66 million years ago) non-avian dinosaurs could burrow, swim, or dive, which suggests they were unable to shelter themselves from the worst parts of any environmental stress that occurred at the K–Pg boundary (when the asteroid hit). It is possible that small dinosaurs (other than birds) did survive, but they would have been deprived of food, as herbivorous dinosaurs would have found plant material scarce and carnivores would have quickly found prey in short supply.” [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretac...tinction\_event](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretac...tinction_event) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/89 "2017-08-06T09:35:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Look I am just saying there are millions of (avian) dinosaurs around today. And crocodiles are also very successful. There is no reason why a small feathered warmblooded dino could not have survived. Maybe there is a difference in interpretation of the words here–I take “could have survived” to mean “might be surviving.” As in, not there is a theoretical possibility that some small dinosaurs _could_ have survived in some alternate timeline, but that they might really be out there in real Brazil _right now_, so grab your butterfly net and pith helment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/90 "2017-08-06T13:29:00Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Maybe there is a difference in interpretation of the words here–I take “could have survived” to mean “might be surviving.” As in, not there is a theoretical possibility that some small dinosaurs _could_ have survived in some alternate timeline, but that they might really be out there in real Brazil _right now_, so grab your butterfly net and pith helment. Well, the thread is about survival at least until about 1500 years ago, so in the timeframes we are imagining, the difference between then and today is negligible. Of course, none of us thinks a large dino survived in Europe until then, but certainly a small one could have, and still be out there somewhere. Unlikely, yes, but not impossible. And, of course, if a small one survived the extinction event, there would have been plenty of time between then and historical times to evolve into a big one, just like so many other populations did, including us. Again, no evidence that any did, and the likelihood is very small. But science doesn’t deal in the kind of absolutes you are trying say it does. If anything, it’s strange that none did survive which makes some scientist postnatal that they were already not the decline and/or that the event in question wasn’t the end-all that many think it was; i.e., that something else was… ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/91 "2017-08-06T13:55:05Z")
What’s being asked if some animals descended from dinosaurs that resemble in size and shape what we think of as dinosaurs (i.e., like the animals in _Jurassic Park_) survived the mass extinction more than 64,000,000 years ago and were still around less than 1600 years ago, despite the fact that we have no evidence that they did. 1600 years is 1/40,000-th of 64,000,000 years. So you’re asking if they lasted 64,000,000 years longer than we know of, but died out so quickly in 1600 years that we have no evidence that they do. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/92 "2017-08-06T14:45:49Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Komodo dragons are, even now, not actually limited to one small island; despite the name, they are not just found on the small island of Komodo. They’re actually found on several islands, including Flores, which is over 200 miles long. > > They are the largest extant species of lizard, specifically a monitor lizard (which are a very widespread group of lizards), not a dinosaur, as has already been said. They may well have been found over a much larger area before being restricted to their current range. Fossils very similar have been found in Australia, as well as many more small islands. Amusingly, the giant lizards shared Flores Island with miniature humans at one point. > **[Homo floresiensis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis)** > > Homo floresiensis (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%} /flɔːrˈɛziːˌɛn.sɪs/ also known as "Flores Man") is an extinct species of small archaic human that inhabited the island of Flores, Indonesia, until the arrival of modern humans about 50,000 years ago. > The remains of an individual who would have stood about 1.1 m (3 ft 7 in) in he... ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/93 "2017-08-06T14:48:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, the thread is about survival at least until about 1500 years ago, so in the timeframes we are imagining, the difference between then and today is negligible. The human footprint on the earth is much bigger than it was 1600 years ago, so it’s not that negligible a difference. Lots of species have gone extinct in the last 1600 years. (NB I do not actually believe that dinosaurs existed either then or now). ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/94 "2017-08-06T14:55:01Z")
I saw a film the other day that showed an island, somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, that had dinosaurs still living on it. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/95 "2017-08-06T15:02:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not God of the gaps. As I think you know, God of the gaps refers to the insistence that evolution by natural selection is insufficient to explain the fossil record, which contains “gaps”, and thus proves God exists and plays a role in evolution. “God of the Gaps” does not specifically refer to evolution or the fossil record. It’s a more general notion that anything that science cannot yet explain is evidence for god. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/96 "2017-08-06T15:13:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > . But science doesn’t deal in the kind of absolutes you are trying say it does. But it does deal with probabilities so low that they microscopicly approach absolutes. For instance, we don’t absolutely know that a perpetual motion machine is impossible because there is always a possibility that we got the laws of thermodynamics wrong, right? Or maybe the laws of thermodynamics are one of those absolutes that you say science doesn’t believe in? I put believing that there might be dinosaurs today on the same level as believing that you can build a perpetual motion machine. The gap of possibility is just that small. ---
**Author:** ![abashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@abashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abashed)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/97 "2017-08-06T16:03:11Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > What’s being asked if some animals descended from dinosaurs that resemble in size and shape what we think of as dinosaurs (i.e., like the animals in _Jurassic Park_) survived the mass extinction more than 64,000,000 years ago and were still around less than 1600 years ago, despite the fact that we have no evidence that they did. 1600 years is 1/40,000-th of 64,000,000 years. So you’re asking if they lasted 64,000,000 years longer than we know of, but died out so quickly in 1600 years that we have no evidence that they do. Yep, show me the evidence! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/98 "2017-08-06T16:25:41Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > What’s being asked if some animals descended from dinosaurs that resemble in size and shape what we think of as dinosaurs (i.e., like the animals in _Jurassic Park_) survived the mass extinction more than 64,000,000 years ago and were still around less than 1600 years ago, despite the fact that we have no evidence that they did. 1600 years is 1/40,000-th of 64,000,000 years. So you’re asking if they lasted 64,000,000 years longer than we know of, but died out so quickly in 1600 years that we have no evidence that they do. I don’t think the timing question is a strong objection _per se_. There have been a dramatic changes in many ecosystems in the last few thousand years attributable to humans. We are in the midst of _another_ mass extinction, the [Holocene Extinction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction). (The lack of evidence is another matter, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/99 "2017-08-06T18:15:30Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I was making an analogy. As the surface of the Earth becomes more and more well known and explored, the gaps where “here they be dragons” (or lake monsters, or bigfeet) becomes. Yes, you can’t absolutely fundamentally rule out that the mythical monster once claimed to cover the world has its last remnant in tha unexplored weedy spot in your cousin Fred’s back yard, but you would probably have more productive uses of your time than looking for it. It is like those people still trying to build cold fusion reactors and perpetual motion machines-- they are vastly more likely to be Bozo the Clown than Galileo. They find new megafauna species all the time. _Even whales._ A chicken sized bird like feathered creature? Those could easily be hiding. I dont think any are, mind you, but I know we will find new species of large animals. I mean, you have **Colibri** - who is pretty much an expert on this subject also say you are wrong. And yet you ridicule. You ridicule what you do not understand. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800/100 "2017-08-06T18:17:50Z")
> [@abashed](#): > > I found this on Wikipedia: > > “There is no evidence that late Maastrichtian (72.1 to 66 million years ago) non-avian dinosaurs could burrow, swim, or dive, which suggests they were unable to shelter themselves from the worst parts of any environmental stress that occurred at the K–Pg boundary (when the asteroid hit). It is possible that small dinosaurs (other than birds) did survive, but they would have been deprived of food, as herbivorous dinosaurs would have found plant material scarce and carnivores would have quickly found prey in short supply.” > > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretac...tinction\_event](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretac...tinction_event) Well, avian dinos by and large couldnt burrow, swim, or dive, and \*they \*survived. Very little different in niche between a bird and one of the smaller feathered warm-blooded dinos. In fact a non-expert would just assume it’s a bird. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-some-dinosaurs-still-existed-during-the-dark-ages/792800.md?page=6)