# Is it possible that illegal immigrants aren't a financial drain on US citizens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658 "2010-04-28T19:42:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/61 "2010-05-02T15:47:31Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > well, I think there is a plentiful supply of domestic labor, or there would be if they could get off the unemployment line or welfare rolls, which they can’t, because the jobs they are qualified for go to illegal immigrants. why do you think this is the case? I mean, assume you’re right, why is that true? (I’m not talking now in our current economy, because actually illegal immigration (and legal, fwiw) has cratered since the 2008 decline. It’s very clear that inflows of illegal immigration are at least loosely correlated to economic conditions in this country. I’m talking when you have 5-6-7 % unemployment [because anything less than that is generally full employment] and employers will opt to hire illegal labor) > [@](#): > > I think what there is a market for is not unskilled but dependable labor, but a solidly un-mobile lower class who will accept sickeningly low wages and poor working conditions. I don’t really think I would distinguish between the two. Unskilled labor is minimum wage labor, which is the floor for wages in this country (even for illegals, probably). > [@](#): > > And maybe that’s fine with you but it’s not fine with me. As far as I’m concerned every undocumented worker who accepts crap pay and shit conditions makes it harder for a legal citizen without a college degree to make a living. So a citizen working at absolute minimum wage for a job is cool if it has generalized wage depressing effects (i.e. depresses wages so as to make unskilled labor paid at an under-a-living-wage rate), but if an illegal does it, it’s not cool? Basically, i’m suggesting that you’re going to have to demonstrate that (significant amounts of) Illegals work for significantly less than minimum wage and somehow work in businesses that fly under OSHA radar. I would posit that most employers, since they are willfully blind to the legality of their labor pool, are probably disinclined to skirt other employment regulations because the more they break rules and regulations, the greater the chance that some government entity will come down hard on them and deliver crippiling sanctions to their enterprise. > [@](#): > > And sure, for them it’s clearly better to have a sucky life in the US than to starve and die in Mexico, i’m not quite sure that people are starving and dying in Mexico, but I’m not really tuned into how Mexicans live. All I know is that it’s ranked #53 in Human development, and i have visited a few countries that are within 15 ranks of mexico and I wouldn’t characterize anyones lifestyle in any of these countries as “starving and dying” > [@](#): > > but the solution for that is economic and social assistance to Mexico, it’s not supporting illegal workers here in the US. sure, but that’s a lose-lose proposition for US businesses. We waste taxpayer monies on foreign aid, and we cut off a needed source of labor for domestic businesses. It’s a ton of aid to bring a country of ~100 million into the middle class so that our own stock of completely unskilled labor has work. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/62 "2010-05-02T16:51:23Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > why do you think this is the case? I mean, assume you’re right, why is that true? I think the key difference is fear, but maybe it’s really just a difference of language. Remember that my original argument was that I believe it’s incorrect to say that illegal immigrants are only taking jobs that no citizen wants, because there are plenty of legal US citizens who would be willing to take a job as a hotel maid or a gardener or a fry cook or a bus boy, except that these jobs appear closed to them because they generally go to illegal Mexicans. I think the difference between an uneducated, low skilled white guy legal citizen and an uneducated, low skilled illegal immigrant is that the immigrant is afraid to make waves when he’s treated badly at work and the white guy isn’t. Assuming that waves aren’t actually going to change anything, what’s the real difference? Fear is good for business. So if a business owner has a choice between scared brown guy who will bend over and take it or empowered white guy who won’t, with all wages (and therefore payroll costs) being the same he’ll probably hire the scared brown guy because he’s easier to control. So it’s not that Mexicans come here and take the job for less pay (because you’re right, the pay is min wage either way) it’s because employers prefer to hire people who are afraid of them because no matter how crappy the work environment they are not going to complain to any authorities are they? So what we end up with is a business model where it’s not about skills, it’s about control, and there’s no real competition for jobs because the scales are too far tipped. I can’t get a job as a hotel maid, not because I don’t want it, or because I don’t know how to make a bed, but because an illegal Mexican woman is a better bet for the employer. She will never complain, she will never ask for a raise, and she will never make an osha complaint. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/63 "2010-05-02T16:51:44Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I don’t really think I would distinguish between the two. Unskilled labor is minimum wage labor, which is the floor for wages in this country (even for illegals, probably). Illegals have a harder time suing the company for maltreatment. This makes them cheaper. If the boss is willing to hire illegals, he may very well pay them less than minimum wage – for instance, on paper making it look like he’s paying them minimum wage for 8 hours work, but actually making them work 14 hours at nearly half the wage so it adds up the same. He might take money that is supposed to go towards a health care plan and pocket it, knowing that an illegal worker can never collect. By virtue of being illegal, illegals have a greater value in the workplace. If you could find and document every illegal worker, and make sure that their employers treated them as well as legals, you’d probably see an end to illegal immigration. People don’t want to uphold the minimum standards of acceptability. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/64 "2010-05-02T18:45:32Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Illegals have a harder time suing the company for maltreatment. This makes them cheaper. If the boss is willing to hire illegals, he may very well pay them less than minimum wage – for instance, on paper making it look like he’s paying them minimum wage for 8 hours work, but actually making them work 14 hours at nearly half the wage so it adds up the same. He might take money that is supposed to go towards a health care plan and pocket it, knowing that an illegal worker can never collect. > > By virtue of being illegal, illegals have a greater value in the workplace. If you could find and document every illegal worker, and make sure that their employers treated them as well as legals, you’d probably see an end to illegal immigration. People don’t want to uphold the minimum standards of acceptability. do you have any evidence of this whatsoever? not that illegals have a harder time suing (which may or may not be true) but that they are paid below minimum wage and/or there are other shenanigans? We already know that illegals contribute a lot of money into SS, which strongly suggests that employers, by and large, aren’t acting in the manner you suggest. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/65 "2010-05-02T18:55:59Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > Remember that my original argument was that I believe it’s incorrect to say that illegal immigrants are only taking jobs that no citizen wants, because there are plenty of legal US citizens who would be willing to take a job as a hotel maid or a gardener or a fry cook or a bus boy, except that these jobs appear closed to them because they generally go to illegal Mexicans. Yes, and I think your argument is flawed. No, they’re not “closed” to them. It’s just that they don’t want to work at those wages and (lack of) benefits (or they don’t come across as very diligent to employers), versus the illegals who will - and who will be very industrious in their job. Look at the mechanism at play: Mexicans have voluntarily displaced themselves from their home, all in pursuit of a job. Average citizen probably has lived in the same town he’s looking for work in since he was born, and doesn’t have any extra-special drive to get a job (other than a paycheck). I mean how else do they “appear closed” to citizens? > [@](#): > > I think the difference between an uneducated, low skilled white guy legal citizen and an uneducated, low skilled illegal immigrant is that the immigrant is afraid to make waves when he’s treated badly at work and the white guy isn’t. Assuming that waves aren’t actually going to change anything, what’s the real difference? Fear is good for business. > > So if a business owner has a choice between scared brown guy who will bend over and take it or empowered white guy who won’t, with all wages (and therefore payroll costs) being the same he’ll probably hire the scared brown guy because he’s easier to control. > > So it’s not that Mexicans come here and take the job for less pay (because you’re right, the pay is min wage either way) it’s because employers prefer to hire people who are afraid of them because no matter how crappy the work environment they are not going to complain to any authorities are they? > > So what we end up with is a business model where it’s not about skills, it’s about control, and there’s no real competition for jobs because the scales are too far tipped. I can’t get a job as a hotel maid, not because I don’t want it, or because I don’t know how to make a bed, but because an illegal Mexican woman is a better bet for the employer. She will never complain, she will never ask for a raise, and she will never make an osha complaint. I think this whole “they’re abused” concept is a bit overblown, for two reasons. One, there are many, many do-gooder civil liberties rights groups who are more than happy to enforce workplace laws on behalf of people who don’t want to enforce them for themselves. Also, this presumes that most employers are very adept at knowing which one of their workers are illegals, and which one’s aren’t. Which, I would suspect, isn’t as easy as it sounds on its face and represents an added cost to the employer that he probably doesn’t care to incur. Secondly, I think you vastly underplay how “scared and under control” a unskilled, paycheck-to-paycheck citizen employee effectively is. Risking losing your sole source of income after conducting a job search for 6 months because your boss tells you to stay an extra hour because you were a little too slow today, and he isn’t about to pay you for it, by complaining to your local employment rights office isn’t any less of a threat than “i’m going to call INS and maybe they’ll get around to you since they are kinda backlogged”. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/66 "2010-05-02T19:25:10Z")
One thing around here (Texas) that’s happening, is that formerly secure construction trade positions such as journeyman electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc… have been largely displaced by unlicensed Mexicans. Sure, there’s a licensed guy signing the plans, etc… but the actual work on much new construction is by either illegal or 1st generation immigrants (hard to tell who’s who). This makes it very hard for people who’ve devoted their entire lives to being plumbers, electricians, etc… to keep employed, unless they’re willing to work for the pittance that the illegal/1st gen immigrants are willing to work for. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/67 "2010-05-02T19:36:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > One thing around here (Texas) that’s happening, is that formerly secure construction trade positions such as journeyman electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc… have been largely displaced by unlicensed Mexicans. Sure, there’s a licensed guy signing the plans, etc… but the actual work on much new construction is by either illegal or 1st generation immigrants (hard to tell who’s who). > > This makes it very hard for people who’ve devoted their entire lives to being plumbers, electricians, etc… to keep employed, unless they’re willing to work for the pittance that the illegal/1st gen immigrants are willing to work for. This isn’t any different than the generalized (trend towards) de-unionization of all employment, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/68 "2010-05-02T23:53:09Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > do you have any evidence of this whatsoever? not that illegals have a harder time suing (which may or may not be true) but that they are paid below minimum wage and/or there are other shenanigans? We already know that illegals contribute a lot of money into SS, which strongly suggests that employers, by and large, aren’t acting in the manner you suggest. What I said would lead to the illegals contributing a lot of money to SS. On paper, they’ll be earning a legal wage. Some percentage of that money will go to taxes (like social security). If there’s a lot of them, a lot of tax money will be collected. [ > [@](#): > > Employer’s privilege > > Being illegal is seldom the migrant’s deliberate choice. When the opportunity to get authorisation occurs, most of those meeting the criteria are only too eager to file an application. In fact, the advantages of illegal migration tend mostly to be on the side of the employer. An employer will benefit from the illegal status of a migrant who is desperate for work and therefore prepared to accept poor pay, usually below local norms. Hiring an illegal worker also brings the employer the advantage of paying less in the way of welfare contributions and other non-wage costs. The “welfare magnet” of illegal immigration is much stronger for the employer than for the worker, whose precarious situation and low bargaining power makes him highly vulnerable to discriminatory practices in the form of longer hours and non-payment of various bonuses, or even of wages. > > […] > > Crowding out the locals > > The question of the effects of illegal immigration on wages and employment of society’s most vulnerable workers is an extremely delicate one. Take the minimum wage for instance. Raising it – or other forms of guaranteed income – may in fact act as a spur to illegal migration, since the higher minimum wage payable to nationals increases the attraction to employers of hiring illegal immigrants. This crowding out affects legal immigrants and national low-wage earners alike, compromising their work-related advantages and undermining their job security, particularly when unemployment is high. It is precisely the kind of argument used in support of policies to limit recruitment of new immigrants. ]([http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid=190](http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid=190)) [ > [@](#): > > Work regulations, specifically in the United States, prohibit employers from hiring illegal immigrants. However, this does not deter some employers. Unfortunately some employers even take advantage of an employee’s “undocumented” status. An employer may pay below what the federal law requires and allow an employee to work in unsafe conditions. Some employers feel they could get away with these human rights violations with illegal immigrants because they wouldn’t report their employer out of fear of deportation. ]([Illegal Immigration to the United States](http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/illegal-immigration.html)) [http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html](http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html) > **[Illegal immigrants struggle to receive back pay - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/illegals.back.pay/)** > > Ramon Hernandez had a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/69 "2010-05-03T02:17:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, it does – but since some of that foreign transation action is the paying down of debt, it’s not contributing to wealth generation in the same way that direct payments for goods and services are. In any event, they are not PRECISELY EQUAL. > > Are they? > > If they are, then please illustrate the method by which they are precisely equal, instead of just denying that they’re not or repeating that they are. > [@RickJay](#): > > For all practical intents, yup, same thing. Paying off debt, in the long run, is as important as buying Cheetos. The U.S. government can’t function without debt servicing and people would not be well served by the government not functioning. I asked you illustrate the method by which you calculate that they are PRECISELY EQUAL. I asked you not to just assert, again, that they are. You are saying that both servicing debt and buying goods are important. I agree. Both are good, both are important. How do you determine that they are PRECISELY EQUAL? You can’t dodge this question by continuing to repeat your claim. You’ve made an extraordinary claim: not that they’re both important, or that they’re on the same order of magnitude, but that they are precisely equal. How did you calculate this equality? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/70 "2010-05-03T02:55:23Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > So a citizen working at absolute minimum wage for a job is cool if it has generalized wage depressing effects (i.e. depresses wages so as to make unskilled labor paid at an under-a-living-wage rate), but if an illegal does it, it’s not cool? > > Basically, i’m suggesting that you’re going to have to demonstrate that (significant amounts of) Illegals work for significantly less than minimum wage and somehow work in businesses that fly under OSHA radar. I would posit that most employers, since they are willfully blind to the legality of their labor pool, are probably disinclined to skirt other employment regulations because the more they break rules and regulations, the greater the chance that some government entity will come down hard on them and deliver crippiling sanctions to their enterprise. Not all illegals work for minimum wage. Many in the construction industry make considerably more. But still less than what the job would pay legally. As far as the point earlier about teenagers not being able to find jobs: you pooh-pooh the value of that. They’re mot only earning money for clothes, car insurance, and school, they’re learning how to be responsible. How to show up on time. How to listen to what is asked of you. How to do it well. And how to show initiative and have it rewarded. When I was in high school I worked at an amusement park. Minimum wage. But I got a raise ($0.15 per hour), and that taught me a lot. These teenagers are the people who will be running things decade or two from now. A job at a young age teaches them how to be better employees later. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/71 "2010-05-03T03:07:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I asked you illustrate the method by which you calculate that they are PRECISELY EQUAL. I asked you not to just assert, again, that they are. > > You are saying that both servicing debt and buying goods are important. I agree. Both are good, both are important. > > How do you determine that they are PRECISELY EQUAL? Because, again, the existence of workers creates demand. We’re getting into absolutely fundamental economic theory here; it’s as if you’re asking me how to prove gravity exists. People work; they generate value in working, and they simultaneously generate demand by using the money they earn to demand goods and services. The demand created by a worker is equal to his ability to spend money, and so is determined by his wage, so the wage levels of workers are essentially proportional to the demand they create. If you want me to say “I can’t prove it equals out to the cent” sure, okay, I retract that just to get this back on track; if anything, they probably ADD more to the economy than they take out. They’re close enough that the notion immigrants are a drain on the economy is horseshit. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/72 "2010-05-03T13:33:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not all illegals work for minimum wage. Many in the construction industry make considerably more. But still less than what the job would pay legally. I don’t get this. There is no such thing as a job that pays “less than what the job would pay legally” if they’re making above minimum wage. Unless you meant “legally under a union contract”? Which is my entire point. It’s not like legal, non-union employees aren’t free to undercut union rates (or at least they ought to be free to). > [@](#): > > As far as the point earlier about teenagers not being able to find jobs: you pooh-pooh the value of that. They’re mot only earning money for clothes, car insurance, and school, they’re learning how to be responsible. How to show up on time. How to listen to what is asked of you. How to do it well. And how to show initiative and have it rewarded. When I was in high school I worked at an amusement park. Minimum wage. But I got a raise ($0.15 per hour), and that taught me a lot. These teenagers are the people who will be running things decade or two from now. A job at a young age teaches them how to be better employees later. Yes, I poo pooh that. I am responsible, i know how to show up on time, I do what is asked of me, I properly execute tasks, and I have initiative. I never worked as a high school kid. For the vast majority of people, especially given this economic situation we’re all seeing here (namely that unskilled labor isn’t really a good path to take, career-wise) their time would be better spent learning responsibility and diligence via attention to schoolwork, not asking if i want fries with that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/73 "2010-05-03T16:43:06Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I don’t get this. There is no such thing as a job that pays “less than what the job would pay legally” if they’re making above minimum wage. Unless you meant “legally under a union contract”? Which is my entire point. It’s not like legal, non-union employees aren’t free to undercut union rates (or at least they ought to be free to). I was thinking about non-union jobs which the market, just due to the nature of the work and the people willing and able to do it, has set the rate above the minimum wage. Illegals just have to offer labor under that market rate. They needn’t go below minimum wage. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Yes, I poo pooh that. I am responsible, i know how to show up on time, I do what is asked of me, I properly execute tasks, and I have initiative. I never worked as a high school kid. For the vast majority of people, especially given this economic situation we’re all seeing here (namely that unskilled labor isn’t really a good path to take, career-wise) their time would be better spent learning responsibility and diligence via attention to schoolwork, not asking if i want fries with that. Well, two things: some kids have to work to make ends meet, particularly while in school. As soon as I was old enough, my parents made it clear that if I want to go to movies and buy albums and take my girlfriend out, that I had to earn that money and have a job. And we weren’t poor. Maybe you came from a wealthier home where your parents could just dole out a nice allowance every week. Not everyone is so fortunate. Even so, kids benefit from the feel of earning their own money. For one, your less apt to piss it away. But if you learned the skills that would help you on the job without having one, good for you, and your parents. Again, not all kids are similarly situated. I also had a job all through college. If I didn’t have one I would have just eaten and drank what was in the cafeteria on the pre-paid plan. Beer was cheap in Milwaukee,but it still cost something. I think your position on this wold have a lot more validity if it was: teenager vs adult who needs a job for his family. But once you include in the equation a sea of people who shouldn’t even be here, the teens win out. Both for what it does for themselves and society. Even if the benefit is as meager as you seem to think. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/74 "2010-05-03T16:54:52Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I don’t get this. There is no such thing as a job that pays “less than what the job would pay legally” if they’re making above minimum wage. Unless you meant “legally under a union contract”? Which is my entire point. It’s not like legal, non-union employees aren’t free to undercut union rates (or at least they ought to be free to). > > Yes, I poo pooh that. I am responsible, i know how to show up on time, I do what is asked of me, I properly execute tasks, and I have initiative. I never worked as a high school kid. For the vast majority of people, especially given this economic situation we’re all seeing here (namely that unskilled labor isn’t really a good path to take, career-wise) their time would be better spent learning responsibility and diligence via attention to schoolwork, not asking if i want fries with that. There are other ways to pay illegally, even without minimum wage: - Cash, no FICA/SS withholding. Makes the pay to the under the table worker effectively higher. - No overtime paid. - No unemployment coverage All of these reduce the effective cost of hiring to the firm. These are also available to citizens, but illegals are more likely to take the positions. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/75 "2010-05-03T17:01:17Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I am responsible, i know how to show up on time, I do what is asked of me, I properly execute tasks, and I have initiative. I never worked as a high school kid. For the vast majority of people, especially given this economic situation we’re all seeing here (namely that unskilled labor isn’t really a good path to take, career-wise) their time would be better spent learning responsibility and diligence via attention to schoolwork, not asking if i want fries with that. Same here, and a large chunk of what I earned babysitting and working part-time jobs in high school went into the bank and then went directly toward my college education. It sure came in handy those times when Mom couldn’t contribute as much as the financial aid office thought she should because she was unemployed. I was a straight-A student in honors and AP classes and a National Merit finalist in high school, so obviously I managed to balance my responsibilities just fine. Earning money for worthwhile things and doing well in high school are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/76 "2010-05-03T17:02:14Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > There are other ways to pay illegally, even without minimum wage: > > - Cash, no FICA/SS withholding. Makes the pay to the under the table worker effectively higher as has been discussed, there are large “excess FICA” contributions due to payroll tax being paid on illegal immigrant wages, so i’d venture a guess that a good chunk of incomes are paid with corresponding payroll taxes > [@](#): > > - No overtime paid. not any less of an issue with unskilled, domestic labor, and really has nothing to do with the “pay” of the position. > [@](#): > > - No unemployment coverage doesn’t count as “pay” for the comment I was responding to, and I would also venture a guess that there are large amounts of underpaid/unpaid unemployment insurance tax amongst many employers who exclusively hire domestic labor ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/77 "2010-05-03T17:09:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I was thinking about non-union jobs which the market, just due to the nature of the work and the people willing and able to do it, has set the rate above the minimum wage. Illegals just have to offer labor under that market rate. They needn’t go below minimum wage. as are domestic workers. > [@](#): > > I think your position on this wold have a lot more validity if it was: teenager vs adult who needs a job for his family. But once you include in the equation a sea of people who shouldn’t even be here, the teens win out. Both for what it does for themselves and society. Even if the benefit is as meager as you seem to think. so if the choice is having a teen do the work just so he learns something and pulls in like $150 a week (~20 hrs at min wage) versus an actual illegal family who (according to some) was going to starve and die in mexico, you’d still give it to the minor kid? no concern at all for the person who wants to work, and wants to work hard (and who can work full time), just because he was born somewhere else? teen still takes priority? would your answer change if the illegals had a kid in this country (and was therefore a citizen?). Yes, the parents are still deport-able, but now you’re getting even closer to an adult (the illegal) who needs the job for his family. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/78 "2010-05-04T00:15:43Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > as are domestic workers. So? The domestic workers who might bring down the wage are simply redefining the fair market value of the job. Mot so for the illegals. It’s a basic supply an demand problem. There is X supply of jobs and Y number of workers. Left to their own devices, a fair market wage will be determined. But if you increase the supply of workers, the demand for any single worker diminishes and wages are pushed down. Illegals increase the supply beyond which the society would have on it’s own, and so, pushes down wages unfairly. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > so if the choice is having a teen do the work just so he learns something and pulls in like $150 a week (~20 hrs at min wage) versus an actual illegal family who (according to some) was going to starve and die in mexico, you’d still give it to the minor kid? no concern at all for the person who wants to work, and wants to work hard (and who can work full time), just because he was born somewhere else? teen still takes priority? > > would your answer change if the illegals had a kid in this country (and was therefore a citizen?). Yes, the parents are still deport-able, but now you’re getting even closer to an adult (the illegal) who needs the job for his family. I would easily choose to give the job to the kid, in either scenario. Illegals do not belong here. It’s really that simple. The faster we cut off labor the faster they’ll go back. That said, once there is a demand for labor here that we can’t full, I’m all for a guest worker program (similar to Canada’s) and opening up immigration as need be. That’s OUR need, no one else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/79 "2010-05-04T00:54:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So? The domestic workers who might bring down the wage are simply redefining the fair market value of the job. Mot so for the illegals. It’s a basic supply an demand problem. There is X supply of jobs and Y number of workers. Left to their own devices, a fair market wage will be determined. But if you increase the supply of workers, the demand for any single worker diminishes and wages are pushed down. Illegals increase the supply beyond which the society would have on it’s own, and so, pushes down wages unfairly. when we start artificially limiting the market size with immigration controls, supply and demand analyses start to break down. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658/80 "2010-05-04T02:13:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Because, again, the existence of workers creates demand. We’re getting into absolutely fundamental economic theory here; it’s as if you’re asking me how to prove gravity exists. I must have been absent that day in Econ. But if asked, I could provide a cite or two that gravity existed, and explain how it worked, so I’d like to ask for a cite or two for your claim. > [@](#): > > People work; they generate value in working, and they simultaneously generate demand by using the money they earn to demand goods and services. The demand created by a worker is equal to his ability to spend money, and so is determined by his wage, so the wage levels of workers are essentially proportional to the demand they create. I’m with you there. Where you lose me is the claim that dollar that go overseas and are used to support foreign capitalization by servicing debt are somehow going to identically equal the effect of the same number of dollars spent locally on goods and services. And I’ve asked three times now, and your answers have been to continually assert it’s true without explanation or cite. It may well be true that this claim is obviously, trivially true to anyone who knows anything about economics. But if that’s so, it should be trvially easy to cite and/or explain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-that-illegal-immigrants-arent-a-financial-drain-on-us-citizens/537658.md?page=5)