Is it possible to be anti-capitalist and pro-market?

I haven’t read much of Marx but I thought that was widely acknowledged one of his major failings – beyond a few vague conditions such as “the state will wither away,” he never did actually lay out the form of the future socialism or communism in his works. It was left to all the later persons in varying degrees inspired by him to try to work out more detailed applications of the idea, in theory and in practice; and of course they came up with widely varying answers.

My thinking is, the point of a classless society should not be to make everyone proletarian, it should be to make everyone bourgeois. But that’s another discussion.

Well, we really don’t know that, because an economy based on self-organized collectives (as distinct from state-centered Stalinism) has never really been tried, on a large scale, for any extended period of time.

If the Republicans had won the Spanish Civil War, and won it without crushing the Spanish Revolution, then we would know more – from observing how the anarcho-syndicalist system would have developed over the decades. Maybe it would have worked out as you say, maybe not.

Can you provide some examples of organizations that lasted for a substantial period of time and were successful in some sort of enterprise that had no hierarchy of any sort? (And which had a thousand or more members?)

I didn’t say it has happened, I said it was possible. And I didn’t say “hierarchy”, I said “this hierarchy”, being Sam’s example of increased material compensation for increased work and responsibility. Certainly, my own interests (Medieval reenactment, environmental activism and roleplaying) are capable of running groups with 100s of people, and week-long events, on a strictly volunteer basis. The only “hierarchy”, such as chairmanship or bookkeeping duties, is temporary, democratically-decided and uncompensated, and any other hierarchy (royalty, peerage, DM-ship, camp leaders) is not organizational. And again, volunteer and temporary. There is a parallel hierarchical organization for all 3 fields, but it is not *necessary *nor does it impact on day-to-day business.

He did lay out some of the bare bones (Well, he and Engels). Enough to say what is and isn’t “Marxist” communism, at any rate. But you’re right, it is a failing. Butt then I’m not a MArxist.

It should make everyone classless, IMO. But yes, another time.

On which hypothetical I have started a separate thread. Have at it!

So you’re postulating as possible something you can’t provide an example of ever happening.

That is such a generic description that it includes pretty much all heirarchies.

The fact that it’s temporary and democratically elected isn’t relevant. The GOVERNMENT is temporary and democratically elected.

As to compensation, I could quite rightly argue that the assumption that all compensation has to be monetary is incorrect. People can and do volunteer to do things for the sake of prestige and (quite often) because it gives them more of a say in how things will be run, so they derive utility from being in charge - and Sam Stone was talking about business enterprises, no less, no hobbies. I’m sure some people do volunteer for leadership positions purely for altruistic reasons, but there’s almost always some limited self-interest involved and it’s still otherwise heirarchical.

In the other thread I said that people require incentives to get them to take various actions. Those incentives don’t have to be money. Hutterite colonies and Monasteries work because the people in them are motivated by faith, rewarded by being in the presence of God, and exist in a hierarchy of religious authorities who tell them what to do.

Collective farms in the Soviet Union worked better under Stalin when the slackers and troublemakers were taken out into the field and shot. There’s your incentive. But it’s not a world I want to live in, and it also created an environment in which no one was willing to stick his neck out, so bad ideas propagated unchallenged and innovation died.

I also pointed out that we’ve tried many times to create secular collective farms and enterprises. Communists have tried it in every country they’ve grabbed, the hippies and counter-culture tried it in the U.S. in the 60’s and 70’s. None of them ever succeeded, let alone becoming successful enough to compete against other organization models like corporations.

In theory a free market is a very (I think the most) effevtive way to make product supply answer to demand. And prices are automaticaly set correctly.

This is in the ideal case, when competition works. Many small sellers compete with quality and prices. Sadly this balance fail as the system gets more capitalistic. *The free market woks fine - until capitalism.
*
I define capitalism as when companies become huge and any individual can profit from owning them. This has many bad consequences:

  1. Companies become increasingly monopolistic. Putting the market out of balance.
    2 Companies act short sightedly in order to increase stock value, not production quantity/quality. (free market theory completely upside down)
  2. Companies create demand for things (free market theory completely upside down) they manipulate society to allways increase consumtion, destroying the world.
  3. They move production to low-cost countries conserving the division of the world in consuming/producing parts.

My anticapitalistic solution:
have all companies owned by the workers in each company.
The government should split companies that get too monopolistic. Or increase their tax and help to start up competing companies.
Ban advertising (and add consumer information)

Maybe the market would work.

This is where it falls down, though - you express trust for the common worker by suggesting he’s smart enough to be a company owner, but simultaneously indicate he’s too dumb to parse advertising.

Israeli kibbutzim worked out well enough.

Not that that’s a typical situation.

See Pacific Edge, discussed in post #6 above. (Not quite the same idea – in Kim Stanley Robinson’s utopian Green America, companies are broken up just for getting too big as organizations; nothing to do with their market share.)

Well, I don’t know if dumb is the word but everyone can not be well versed and criticaly thinking about everything. Owning is easy though. Many own shares today, also common workers. That does not require much of them. They seldom interfere with the decision making of the company. They just own. And ofcourse they are smart enough for that. It could be the same in a worker owned company. Though I would suggest some sort of democracy within the companies, just like in states. Smaller companies can have no heirarchy, but how to organize this should probably be up to each company.

I definately think people are too “dumb” to handle advertising. People “buy it” that’s why compnanies spend so much on advertising. It shapes people, makes them miss things. They create ideals to identify them selves with by consuming. It’s no different from adverising for children, except that is even worse.

DEFINITIONS

  1. Capitalism (distributed planning and control using the technologies of property and the pricing system). Or politically: a bias toward letting the market solve problems of production.

  2. Socialism (centralized planning and control in the necessary absence of the pricing system). Or politically: a bias toward political centralization of solving problems of production.

  3. Mixed Economy ( distributed planning and control using property and pricing system, with redistribution of wealth through taxation). Or politically, letting the market solve problems of production, while centralizing some amount of the wealth generated for redistribution and investment in outcomes where the market process is unable to concentrate capital.

  4. Market: the voluntary production of property for the purpose of speculating on it’s voluntary trade. The speculative pricing assigned to the goods or services. The reliance upon prices to determine the products to be produced, and the factors of production to be consumed. Implies the regulation of products into the market. and implies the defense of property rights and conflict resolution within the market of goods and services by a third party.

  5. Trade: the voluntary transfer of property from one individual to another. (which implies knowledge of the purchaser, and the irrelevance of third parties)

DISCUSSION

Early Leftist were traditional luddites who confused the necessity of ownership of the means of production (property) with the ability to redistribute the results of that system of ownership: It is not necessary to control the means of production in order to redistribute wealth. While property and prices are necessary for complex production, and incentives are necessary to encourage people to produce, it appears that we can determine rules of property use, and we can determine some level of redistribution while maintaining sufficient incentives to produce. At least, that has been the general course of events over the past century.

Contrarily, unstated but implied in that statement, such a redistribution will affect the ability to consume, but not ‘organized control over’ what is produced. This may disappoint some. However, since all groups are led by elites and elites must make decisions on production, the such centralized control creates only the illusion of proletariat control over what is produced.

You cannot have a market (speculative production in anticipation of trade wherein prices communicate relative demand) without prices and property. This is logically impossible. While communists have forever posited the opposite, people will not produce excess for market purposes without the incentive to do so (and will resort to black markets, and therefore recreate the market).

If what you define as “anti-capitalist” (i suspect) is having a number of people with knowledge and relationships and control of property concentrate resources toward productive ends that you disagree with, then you can indeed be “anti-capitalist”. If you define anti-capitalist as a status-criticism, wherein you dislike the fact that you are most likely a permanent member of the proletariat, which decreases your access to mates and opportunity, then you indeed can be an ant-capitalist. Those are sentimental objections. (Despite the fact that our society is largely run by the middle class and upper proletariat.)

But if you mean that you dislike the nature of prices and property, then you’re just illogical, and the result of your beliefs would result in destitute poverty, murder and war. The market evolved because of the limitation of the human mind. We cannot replace it without making the human mind far better than it is. And perhaps far better than it can be.

Redistribution is a biological sentiment in the human animal that evolved because it is necessary for group-persistence: to retain competitive ability against other groups, and to insure the group’s survival. Universal egalitarian equality, which is a member of the set of leftist sentiment of “harm/care/nurture” or the sentiment of eliminating the sensation of status differences, or the sentiment eliminating the material differences between people’s access to resources, is simply an illogical construct regardless of which sentiment is being applied: Because we need incentives to produce, and we must over produce and divide our labor to reduce prices. (”We are not wealthier than cave men, everything is just infinitely cheaper due to the division of labor”) Because people will always seek status differences even under socialism. Because the iron law of oligarchy mandates that elites and leaders emerge, and once they emerge they form a self-serving bureaucracy. Because it is impossible for more than a family sized group of people to agree on both the means and ends of doing anything meaningful in a division of labor sufficient to produce low prices. (this last, is the virtue of what we call the market).

Participating in the market is also voluntary. One can consume the goods of the market without participating in the market one’s self. Some people, in fact, a majority of people, are not sufficiently competitive in any form of production that they can conceive of, or afford to speculate in the market. So they TRADE their productivity rather than SPECULATE on by producing goods or services for the market.

To be a member of a market economy, one only needs to refrain from theft. To be a ‘good’ member of a market economy, once needs additionally to refrain from fraud and deception. But these are the means by which we obtain citizenship in the market, not participate in the market. To enter the market itself, means that you risk capital and compete in the arena that is the market, and are willing and able to accept losses. The problem for the proletariat is that their value-system is predicated on self-production for consumption purposes, and trading for goods that cannot be self produced. People only a century ago would put to market only their over-production, and purchase from the market only for goods that they could not produce themselves. Except there is precious little in modern society that a person can produce himself, let alone, produce for market consumption himself. This necessitates an uncomfortable uncertainty for those people who must speculate in order to survive in the market. Hence leftist sentiments of the family, epistemology of the family, organization of the family, production of the family must compete with rightist sentiments of the market.

It is quite likely that the right and left will both fail. That we will instead of succeeding in incorporating all people into the market (the error of the right) or incorporating all people into the luddite familial structure (the error of the left) that we will adopt the european and south american models of a wealthy urban and rural groups, and a ring of abject destitute hyper-breeding poverty around the urban cores, wherein the upper and middle classes pay the permanent proletariat just enough to subsist, and we emerge with a tiered society both geographically, genetically, and materially. And this end result will in no small part be due to the christian error of egalitarianism sentiments that deny the productive differences of human beings in the real and material world – the majority of which differences derive from the ability and rate at which one can learn and apply abstractions (IQ) in a dynamic and rapidly moving economy.

While neither left or right can achieve it’s idealistic ends, leftism is an attempt to enslave the productive (innovative) class’s attempt to increase production and increase prices for the purpose of status enhancement. But by that restraint doom all people to poverty. This is the strategy behind all monotheistic religions. They are resistance movements that attempt to make status among the proletariat a spiritual rather than material construct. Capitalism (or right-ism) on the other hand is an attempt to keep sufficient productive resources in the hands of market producers that all society benefits, despite the fact that the proletariat feels increasingly left behind and deprived of status because of the accelerating rate at which the productive classes (those who take speculative risks and thereby increase choices and decrease prices) seemingly depart from the lower classes, despite the fact that in all but the rarest circumstances (catastrophic health care) that the difference between the quintiles is one of symbolic status and diversity of forms of entertainment, rather than differences in material well being.

As it stands Quantitative Keynesianism is the socialist research program, and Anarcho capitalism is the capitalist research program. The difference between these methods lies in both their ambitions and their methods. By applying 19th century advances in the mathematics of the natural world (closed probabilism) to the aggregate symbols of production of the economy (monetary values), it became possible to try to fulfill some methods of the socialist program by using capitalism for socialistic ends.

The problem for the capitalists, and the reason for the failure of the Austrian (qualitative) program’s emphasis on micro-economic behavior, is that they do not have a method of mathematics to provide sufficient explanatory power equal to the left’s program, despite knowing, with absolute certainty, that the Keynesian program must fail. This is because despite the efforts of Poincare, Mandelbrot, Hayek, Popper, Mises, and Parsons, more recently Taleb, and a host of others, there appears to be no symbolic language that can represent the plasticity and organic behavior of the property-pricing system and how it reacts to human knowledge. (This is typically called ‘Hume’s Problem’ of Induction.) It appears, at least at this point in time, that we will need a vast amount of data, on the order of many times that of the Google indexes, to provide us with enough of a basis from which to derive the patterns in that symbolic information.

Even if we could find that information, we could find the patterns, and develop a mathematics of economics and the social sciences, the question would remain whether these innovations would have any material impact on the fact that humans are of pedagogical NECESSITY, epistemic status seekers, and that there are those who lead that pack of humanity and those who are forever followers in it, and the envy of the followers, and the arrogance of the leaders mandate that we will remain competitive, and that the problem of human difference is both permanent and valuable to the division of knowledge and labor.

Welcome to the board, curtd59. We’re always glad to hear from new people, but in the future please don’t cut and paste posts from your own blog. I’ve shortened the post and added a link to the blog so anyone who is interested can see the rest of your comments.

A definition irrelevant to this thread, which I’m sure you read through before posting.

Free Market?

  1. Any market that trades abstracts (options, warrants, derivatives, intellectual property, titles, ) under fiat currency, and under limited liability is not free. It is a construct.

  2. Every society creates slightly different property definitions. No market is free. The granularity of property definition varies widely.

  3. Any market that is protected by rule of law, contract, and the defense of trade routes is not free. While we can substitute insurance schemes for the state (Hoppe) there is a cost.

  4. the creation of abstracts, in particular common several property itself, but also truth-telling, manners, ethics, morals, and every other facet of society, require that individuals forgo opportunities for self gain. These are costs. They are forgone opportunity costs. These costs, mostly the respect for property, are the fee for benefiting from market society. Everyone pays them except criminals. These are real costs. Social order is not ‘free’. It is predicated on the assumption that these costs will eventually benefit everyone. They may not benefit everyone equally, but everyone should obtain some benefit. These costs are NOT FREE.

  5. the most competitive form of group persistence is human capital in the form of both technical knowledge and institutional habits (property definitions and methods of behavior) as well as the political institutions that make it possible utilize that capital (such as a judiciary, public safety, money, credit, interest, banking and accounting.) There is a fantastic cost to producing these institutions and behaviors that permit and encourage trade. Trade is not free.

  6. the question is open then: under what conditions is free trade profiteering from the sacrifices of others? In other words, when is free trade (trade outside the domestic economy) the privatization of wins and socialization of losses? And how can these thefts be minimized?

Society is a product of the market. Because without a market, there can be no ‘society’, because there can be no polity, without a polity there can be no leadership, because there can be no means of regulating the market by creating property definitions. There is no reason for politics without a market.

A free market is one where there are no interference by third parties once the game of speculating has begun. It is not wherein there are no conditions or rules. ONly a prohibition on the change of rules.

The argument over free trade is whether there is a net import or export of the capital necessary to maintain the market from which the society obtains it’s wealth and prosperity. This is an unsettled problem. But it appears that all free trade arguments through even the 21st century, rely on outdated principles of application to small nations alone. Why? Because empires cannot specialize, only small states. And that is the argument for free trade: national specialization, and an increase in the likelihood of peaceful interactions.

Instead, it appears that we are exporting human capital in exchange for discounts on consumer goods, and the ratio is imbalanced, and no longer in our favor.

I cross posted on my blog in response to this for the purpose of documenting my comments here. I document all my writing everywhere I post in this fashion as do most bloggers. So, it’s the other way around, I posted from here to there. If you want me to not cross post then say so and I’m fine with that.

Thanks.

Wealthy markets nations can sponsort and host collectivist cults. But that cult is an contrivance of, and exists at the purvey of, the hosting market economy. (or in the Jewish case, the international diasporic population.) Otherwise prices are prohibitive. It would be better to think of the Kibbutzim (as well as the rapid-breeding welfare-dependent jewish fundamentalists that live off the rest of the population, and are a constant source of complaint) as state-sponsored romantic entertainment for the purpose of persisting some elements of cultural heritage. However, they are not ‘economies’ or ‘successful’ in the sense that they can persist without subsidy.

I love the Amish too. And the Grateful Dead Subculture. But they are the result of a market economy, not an alternative to it.

In that case I restored the full post. If you want use your blog to save what you’re posting over here, that’s fine. We do have rules about using this site to get more page views for blogs but that’s not an issue if you’re actually participating in the discussions here.