# Is it possible to be Pro-Choice AND think that fetus=baby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013 "2011-05-06T21:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/1 "2011-05-06T21:23:05Z")
Ok, this has potential to go south really quick, but I’m having a personal dilemma here. I know that most of everything I enjoy is based on the efforts and sacrifices of a whole cartload of brave women who did their utmost to force society to recognize them as people. I also fully believe that every woman should be allowed, encouraged, and assisted to make whatever reproductive choices her heart desires, regardless of what they may be. However, I also find myself thinking pretty seriously about pregnancy. I used to be pretty firmly in the 24-weeks camp, where (in my mind) fetuses sort of ‘graduated’ to potential preemies. Then I started reading stories where 23, 22, and even (possibly) one little girl at 21 weeks were delivered and lived, sometimes (yes, rarely, but still, it happens) with very minor problems. My best friend is also pregnant, and she’s telling me marvelous stories about how “Peanut” is starting to kick and move in response to things that my friend does… and she’s only 16 weeks! So now I’m really perplexed. Is the only difference between a 23 week old fetus and a 23 week old preemie that the second one is wanted enough that the parents are willing to consider life with extreme developmental problems as better than death? Is that a bad thing? A good thing? I don’t know! Please help me reconcile these two positions, because I don’t think either one of them is going to change, and the friction between the two is starting to really make me unhappy. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/2 "2011-05-06T21:36:59Z")
Well, the easiest way is to say that sure, a fetus is a baby, but that terminating the pregnancy (“killing the baby”, if you like) is not immoral, nor should it be illegal. I’m willing to do that sometimes in real life, although on this board I generally use “fetus” and “personhood” language, because people get irrational about “babies”. Another way is to recognize that we “kill” already born people sometimes, and that’s not murder - assisted suicide is legal in some states. I want abortion to stay legal because I support the right of women not to be pregnant when they don’t want to be, not because I want to kill babies. I love babies. I want to work in neonatal intensive care, caring for premature and sick babies. But I don’t want to force any person into being a parent when they don’t want to be, especially being a parent of a child who may have severe medical issues or disabilities because of their prematurity. But yes, fundamentally, I think you’re right. If you want to keep it, it’s a baby. If you don’t, it’s a fetus. I had a 23 week preemie I could have legally aborted, because the rubric in my state is viability as determined by two doctors and they were willing to say she wasn’t viable because it was so borderline, but I didn’t want to. I’ll still defend another person’s (or my, actually) right to abort. Pro-choice means I’m supportive of \*any \*choice, not just the ones I’ve made. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/3 "2011-05-06T21:38:54Z")
I’m pro-choice, and I don’t have any problem thinking of a fetus as a baby. For me, the turning point is when the fetus develops a brain…because that’s what makes us human. But I’m always puzzled as to why this would automatically make it not ok for the mother to abort the child. After all, it’s the mother who has to take the child to term, and the mother (and father) who have to feed and care for the child. I think a lot of pro-choice people feel the need to rationalize their stance by making the fetus not equal a baby. Me, I don’t have that problem…it’s always the mothers choice up to the point the baby is born. After that, she doesn’t get a choice anymore…she has already made it, and doing away with the baby after birth is murder. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/4 "2011-05-06T21:39:34Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Well, the easiest way is to say that sure, a fetus is a baby, but that terminating the pregnancy (“killing the baby”, if you like) is not immoral, nor should it be illegal. It’s even perfectly reasonable to say that it \*is \*immoral, but still shouldn’t be illegal. Unfortunately, such a position is too complicated to be given an easily accessible label, so it’s often easier to simply steer clear of the subject entirely. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/5 "2011-05-06T21:50:33Z")
I think a fetus is a baby if you want to call it that. I think a fetus is a human baby. I even have no issue with a fetus being an individual, a person, etc. And I’m pro-choice. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/6 "2011-05-06T21:57:19Z")
I came in here expecting some dissent. Instead, I’ll just join the “me too” chorus. I don’t find the baby/fetus distinction morally useful. I think abortion is a sad thing either way. But sometimes there are worse things than abortion and I trust a mother/doctor combo to make this kind of difficult decision much more than I trust politicians. Pro-choice. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/7 "2011-05-06T22:00:15Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > **Is it possible to be Pro-Choice AND think that fetus=baby?** Yes. “Fetus” is a technical term, while “baby” is used much more casually. And someone who is all excited about their newly conceived “baby” isn’t thinking in terms of parsing the definitions of words, they’re all gooey about their impending parenthood. And if they _want_ that pregnancy, emotionally bonding to your offspring is considered a _good_ thing, so they aren’t going to try to be all cold and clinical even if it occurs to them. In other words, “OK, it’s not _technically_ correct but _so what?_” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/8 "2011-05-06T22:02:04Z")
[QUOTE=kevlaw] But sometimes there are worse things than abortion and I trust a mother/doctor combo to make this kind of difficult decision much more than I trust politicians. [/QUOTE] Exactly. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/9 "2011-05-06T22:07:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Is it possible to be Pro-Choice AND think that fetus=baby? Sure. You could accept [the Violinist](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/) argument put forward by Judith Jarvis Thompson: > [@Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy](#): > > Judith Jarvis Thomson provided one of the most striking and effective thought experiments in the moral realm. Her example is aimed at a popular anti-abortion argument that goes something like this: The fetus is an innocent person with a right to life. Abortion results in the death of a fetus. Therefore, abortion is morally wrong. > > ``` > In her thought experiment we are asked to imagine a famous violinist falling into a coma. The society of music lovers determines from medical records that you and you alone can save the violinist's life by being hooked up to him for nine months. The music lovers break into your home while you are asleep and hook the unconscious (and unknowing, hence innocent) violinist to you. You may want to unhook him, but you are then faced with this argument put forward by the music lovers: The violinist is an innocent person with a right to life. Unhooking him will result in his death. Therefore, unhooking him is morally wrong. > > However, the argument does not seem convincing in this case. You would be very generous to remain attached and in bed for nine months, but you are not morally obliged to do so. **The parallel with the abortion case is evident. The thought experiment is effective in distinguishing two concepts that had previously been run together: “right to life” and “right to what is needed to sustain life.” The fetus and the violinist may each have the former, but it is not evident that either has the latter.** [emphasis mine] The upshot is that even if the fetus has a right to life (which Thomson does not believe but allows for the sake of the argument), it may still be morally permissible to abort. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/10 "2011-05-06T22:14:14Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Sure. You could accept [the Violinist](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/) argument put forward by Judith Jarvis Thompson: That’s … really interesting. I’m going to have to think about that parallel. I’m also a little bit happily shocked that other people are ok with the idea of a fetus potentially being a baby/person. With threads like the abortion clinic one in the Pit, and the polarized arguments all over the place, I was feeling a little ostracized from each group. Thank you all for being kind and reasonable! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/11 "2011-05-06T22:22:40Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > Ok, this has potential to go south really quick, but I’m having a personal dilemma here. > > I know that most of everything I enjoy is based on the efforts and sacrifices of a whole cartload of brave women who did their utmost to force society to recognize them as people. > > I also fully believe that every woman should be allowed, encouraged, and assisted to make whatever reproductive choices her heart desires, regardless of what they may be. > > However, I also find myself thinking pretty seriously about pregnancy. > > I used to be pretty firmly in the 24-weeks camp, where (in my mind) fetuses sort of ‘graduated’ to potential preemies. Then I started reading stories where 23, 22, and even (possibly) one little girl at 21 weeks were delivered and lived, sometimes (yes, rarely, but still, it happens) with very minor problems. > > My best friend is also pregnant, and she’s telling me marvelous stories about how “Peanut” is starting to kick and move in response to things that my friend does… and she’s only 16 weeks! > > So now I’m really perplexed. Is the only difference between a 23 week old fetus and a 23 week old preemie that the second one is wanted enough that the parents are willing to consider life with extreme developmental problems as better than death? Is that a bad thing? A good thing? > > I don’t know! > > Please help me reconcile these two positions, because I don’t think either one of them is going to change, and the friction between the two is starting to really make me unhappy. No I don’t think it is possible to be pro-choice and think the fetus is a baby. That’s why pro-choicers like to refer to the fetus as a group of cells or not a person. It makes them feel less guilty. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/12 "2011-05-06T22:25:28Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > It’s even perfectly reasonable to say that it \*is \*immoral, but still shouldn’t be illegal. Unfortunately, such a position is too complicated to be given an easily accessible label, so it’s often easier to simply steer clear of the subject entirely. True. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/13 "2011-05-06T22:27:00Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > No I don’t think it is possible to be pro-choice and think the fetus is a baby. Do the responses of the nearly dozen posters who are pro-choice and think the fetus can be called a baby not exist? Or do you think we’re lying? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/14 "2011-05-06T22:28:41Z")
[QUOTE=classyladyhp] No I don’t think it is possible to be pro-choice and think the fetus is a baby. That’s why pro-choicers like to refer to the fetus as a group of cells or not a person. It makes them feel less guilty. [/QUOTE] And yet, thus far in this thread all the ‘pro-choicers’ have pretty much said that they do regard a fetus as a baby. Which is contrary to your assertion here. How do you reconcile this disparity?? BTW, I don’t feel any guilt at all for my stance. Just sayin’… -XT ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/15 "2011-05-06T22:30:00Z")
I said I don’t think it’s possible. If some pro-choicers believe the fetus is a baby then why do they insist on saying that it is only a clump of cells and not a person when they are trying to refute the anti-abortionist’s argument? Just take a look at the thread in the pit. You have all kinds of pro-choicers arguing that the fetus is not a person. Why the contradiction now? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/16 "2011-05-06T22:36:10Z")
[QUOTE=classyladyhp] If some pro-choicers believe the fetus is a baby then why do they insist on saying that it is only a clump of cells and not a person when they are trying to refute the anti-abortionist’s argument? [/QUOTE] You are asking why some people have different views on a given subject? 😛 > [@](#): > > Just take a look at the thread in the pit. You have all kinds of pro-choicers arguing that the fetus is not a person. Why the contradiction now? Because you are attempting to make sweeping assertions about a group of people who don’t agree in lock step about everything? Again…look at the responses in this thread. Do you still think ALL ‘pro-choicers’ agree in lock step about every aspect of this subject?? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/17 "2011-05-06T22:38:43Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > If some pro-choicers believe the fetus is a baby then why do they insist on saying that it is only a clump of cells and not a person when they are trying to refute the anti-abortionist’s argument? > Just take a look at the thread in the pit. You have all kinds of pro-choicers arguing that the fetus is not a person. Why the contradiction now? Because it isn’t a contradiction. “Baby” as I said is a colloquial term; if people call it a baby, then that’s what it is. And because the word games the anti-abortionists like are irrelevant; call it a baby, a fetus or a zucchini, a clump of cells s still just a clump of cells. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/18 "2011-05-06T22:39:01Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I said I don’t think it’s possible. > If some pro-choicers believe the fetus is a baby then why do they insist on saying that it is only a clump of cells and not a person when they are trying to refute the anti-abortionist’s argument? Do you deny that many people who have posted in this thread have stated that they are pro-choice and think that a fetus is a baby? If you do not deny that, then you acknowledge that it is possible to think that a fetus is a baby and be pro-choice. Note that to acknowledge this you need not agree with them. Also, has anyone in the thread referred to a baby or fetus as a clump of cells? If not, how does that claim relate to the question posed by the original poster? ETA: I can’t quote correctly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/19 "2011-05-06T22:42:42Z")
I just mean that you see the same argument time and time again. The pro-lifer says abortion is murder. The pro-choicers say it’s not because the fetus is not a person. Then they continue with words like it is a parasite, a clump of cells, it has no brain, it can’t survive on it’s own etc etc etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/20 "2011-05-06T22:43:56Z")
Sure. Heck, I’ll cheerfully stipulate that the fetus is a baby, a child, a person, a sentient… anything you want, but I’m still pro-choice. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013.md?page=2)