# Is it possible to be Pro-Choice AND think that fetus=baby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013 "2011-05-06T21:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/61 "2011-05-07T15:55:26Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > That’s right lets just screw the right of the other body inside the woman’s body. After all the mother’s choice to do what she wants is more important than the baby’s right to life:rolleyes: > I’d rather be an advocate for the unborn baby who is completely innocent. I’d rather not punish the baby for its mother’s actions. That’s the beauty of being pro-choice. If that’s what you believe, then don’t have an abortion. Aren’t you glad there aren’t laws to force you to have an abortion? If by some criteria the state decides that you shouldn’t carry a pregnancy to term? Let’s say you already have have “too many” kids, or are on welfare, or the child is so handicapped the state will be paying millions of dollars to support it you must terminate? That someone else’s moral beliefs aren’t foisted on you? That would be morally repugnant to me, just as denying the right to abortion is also morally repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/62 "2011-05-07T16:10:21Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > That’s only your opinion. I don’t see the baby as a “thing”. A tumor and an appendix are not going to become a human if left to develop. So? That it must still develop means that it isn’t a human yet. Merely because something will become something else doesn’t mean we should treat it as its full form in advance. We don’t allow children to drive, or smoke, or drink, or vote, merely because in the fullness of time they will become adults. Even the development of the fetus, left alone, is not sure (I don’t recall the statistics for natural miscarriage offhand, i’m afraid). The only inevitable, unavoidable certainty of development is death - by the argument of future development, we should be treating everyone as corpses, and such without rights. But that would be a silly idea, i’d hope you agree. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/63 "2011-05-07T16:15:08Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > So? That it must still develop means that it isn’t a human yet. Merely because something will become something else doesn’t mean we should treat it as its full form in advance. We don’t allow children to drive, or smoke, or drink, or vote, merely because in the fullness of time they will become adults. > > Even the development of the fetus, left alone, is not sure (I don’t recall the statistics for natural miscarriage offhand, i’m afraid). The only inevitable, unavoidable certainty of development is death - by the argument of future development, we should be treating everyone as corpses, and such without rights. But that would be a silly idea, i’d hope you agree. It’s enough of a moral gray zone to allow individuals moral compasses to to be considered. Some moral questions are clear cut- many others are complex. It’s those where we have to respect the rights of the individual to make decisions for themselves. So while to you (I assume) the moral choice to err on the side of “what if it’s a human and should be protected” is the right one, to others “is the cost to individual freedom or the health/well being of the woman enough to make it available” argument is the morally tenable one. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/64 "2011-05-07T16:15:24Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > So? That it must still develop means that it isn’t a human yet. Merely because something will become something else doesn’t mean we should treat it as its full form in advance. We don’t allow children to drive, or smoke, or drink, or vote, merely because in the fullness of time they will become adults. > > Even the development of the fetus, left alone, is not sure (I don’t recall the statistics for natural miscarriage offhand, i’m afraid). The only inevitable, unavoidable certainty of development is death - by the argument of future development, we should be treating everyone as corpses, and such without rights. But that would be a silly idea, i’d hope you agree. No I can’t say that I do agree. Someone posted that a fetus is like an appendix and no it is completely different than an appendix. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/65 "2011-05-07T16:18:10Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > No I can’t say that I do agree. Someone posted that a fetus is like an appendix and no it is completely different than an appendix. You don’t think that treating everyone as having the rights of their inevitable, eventual status as corpses is silly? The person you were responding to claimed that a fetus and an appendix were alike not in all aspects, but in their right to life. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/66 "2011-05-07T16:28:54Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I found [Beckwith’s analysis of the violinist argument](http://homepage.mac.com/francis.beckwith/Thomson.pdf) to be most helpful in this regard. Interesting, but I think most of his points about the “flaws” are flawed, and for two simple reasons: Despite what he says, people \*can \*abandon their born children legally. Safe-haven laws have seen to that for infants, and foster care/adoptions for older children. It’s not always easy, but there are those avenues in place. A lot of his perceptions of the flaws in the violinist argument stem from his idea that men don’t have the same right to “unhook” themselves from the “violinist” (fetus/baby) that women do, which indicates that we as a society don’t view parental responsibilities as voluntary, which is central to the Violinist Argument. But…what if it’s the societal attitude on (male) child support which is flawed? I think it is, and that any person who can demonstrate that he had no intention of conception and no desire to be a parent (I’m not sure how, but if he can) then he should be allowed to severe his parental rights and responsibilities should his partner choose to carry to term. I know that’s not a popular opinion, but appealing to popularity is itself a logical fallacy. Yes, there’s a contradiction in the Violinist Argument that parenthood is a voluntary responsibility and mandatory child support from men who used contraception and it failed. But perhaps it’s mandatory child support that’s wrong, not the Violinist Argument. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/67 "2011-05-07T18:03:43Z")
If you do not believe in abortion. then do not have one. But when someone says, I do not believe in abortion, therefore you should not have one, I am repelled. What gives you the right to overrule my decision that concerns my life and my ability to raise a kid? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/68 "2011-05-07T20:10:21Z")
I’m with the OP; I don’t think it’s a baby, so moral considerations don’t really come into it. If I thought it was a baby, I probably still wouldn’t want abortion to be illegal, but I’m not certain of that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/69 "2011-05-07T21:11:40Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Didn’t I just say that **people have different morals???:dubious:** If you don’t think abortion is immoral then that’s fine as we clearly feel very different about what is moral. Your follow-up, though, suggested you viewed your particular take on morality to be the correct one and/or a pro-choice stance requires a willful abandonment of morality. It could just be a misunderstanding, of course, not something needing bold text and multiple (and indignant) question marks. I’m prepared to talk to you like an adult, if you want an adult conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/70 "2011-05-07T21:51:08Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > That’s right lets just screw the right of the other body inside the woman’s body. After all the mother’s choice to do what she wants is more important than the baby’s right to life:rolleyes: > I’d rather be an advocate for the unborn baby who is completely innocent. I’d rather not punish the baby for its mother’s actions. I think you misunderstood my point. you said > [@classyladyhp](#): > > The pro-choicers seem to place more importance on the right of the woman to do what she wants with her body than morality. Perhaps you misspoke, because that statement doesn’t really make a lot of sense. Consider the opposite statement: “The pro-lifers seem to place more importance on the right of the baby to live than morality.” Does that make sense to you? No, because the right of the baby to live _is_ morality. Yes, pro-choicers and pro-lifers have different moralities. But you seemed to be claiming that pro-choicers don’t follow morality at all. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/71 "2011-05-08T00:07:28Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > For me it is a question of morality. I feel that it is immoral to purposely abort a baby. If I had an abortion I would go insane with guilt an would not be able to live with myself. I can guarantee that 100%. > I also understand that different people have different morals and values. The pro-choicers seem to place more importance on the right of the woman to do what she wants with her body than morality. That’s not the way I’d say it at all–rather, it’s that the woman has a moral right TO bodily autonomy, which can be said to be in conflict with and (in the case of pro-choicers and the current law) trumps the “preference” of the developing fetus to occupy the mother’s uterus. That is, the pro-life position is not the only one with claims to “moral” behavior. The problem is, ultimately, the sum of two things: 1. what are the rights that attacks to the fetus and to the mother? 2. how do those rights interact in the specific case of an unwanted pregnancy? > [@](#): > > I know I’m not going to be able to convince anyone on here that abortion is wrong. Also none of the pro-choicers on here are going to be able to convince me that abortion is ok if that’s what the woman wants to do. Honest question: if you’re not open to being convinced, and you don’t believe others can be convinced, why post in “Great Debates” at all? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/72 "2011-05-08T01:18:57Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > Go ahead Captain Amazing and keep yourself hooked up to the Violinist. That is a very giving and generous gift of your body. I don’t think it’s particularly generous of me at all. I mean, I certainly would never volunteer to hook myself up to the violinist. I’d probably be horrified and angry that it happened. But by that point, it’s a fait accompli, and I don’t have a choice anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/bbce88/32.png) [@Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quia_Sic_Dico)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/73 "2011-05-08T02:50:56Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > That is, the pro-life position is not the only one with claims to “moral” behavior. The problem is, ultimately, the sum of two things: > > 1. what are the rights that attacks to the fetus and to the mother? > 2. how do those rights interact in the specific case of an unwanted pregnancy? Is it really just the sum of those two things, though? Ethics, in my opinion, can’t simply be reduced to a matter of rights and their relative priority.I’m not really sure whether I’m prepared to accord any _ **rights** _ to either the prospective mother or the fetus. As a utilitarian I consider it more a matter of resolving the situation in a way that causes the least possible suffering to all the sentient beings (i.e. able to suffer, cf. intellectually conscious) involved. In my opinion it is worse for the mother, who would probably have to endure prolonged physical and psychological suffering, to be forced to give birth to a baby she doesn’t want, than it is for a fetus/unborn baby, who would otherwise face the potential problems of being born to a reluctant mother, to be subjected to the brief, but intense, physical suffering that I imagine being aborted would cause. This argument is of course dependent on the assumption that being dead doesn’t hurt (why would it?). And even if death were a painful condition, I might still find the abortion morally sound, based on the fact that we all end up dead, and, it seems, stay that way for a lot longer than we live, which somewhat diminishes the incentive to keep the baby alive for the sole purpose of sparing it some decades of “death-pain”, which it would sooner or later have to endure for, possibly, all eternity, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/74 "2011-05-08T02:55:30Z")
> [@Quia\_Sic\_Dico](#): > > In my opinion it is worse for the mother, who would probably have to endure prolonged physical and psychological suffering, to be forced to give birth to a baby she doesn’t want, than it is for a fetus/unborn baby, who would otherwise face the potential problems of being born to a reluctant mother, to be subjected to the brief, but intense, physical suffering that I imagine being aborted would cause. It’s unlikely that it can feel pain at all, especially early on. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/75 "2011-05-08T02:55:47Z")
In response to something I ready earlier, I’d like to know what’s worse than death. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/76 "2011-05-08T03:03:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s a _thing_. It has no “right to life” any more than a tumor or appendix does. She has rights, the thing inside her doesn’t. I think there are subtle differences between a fetus and a tumor or appendix. I have yet to hear of a tumor or appendix that eventually became a sentient being that left its host to go on to college. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/77 "2011-05-08T03:05:51Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > I think there are subtle differences between a fetus and a tumor or appendix. I have yet to hear of a tumor or appendix that eventually became a sentient being that left its host to go on to college. Irrelevant. What matters is what they are now, not what they might or might not be. Otherwise we are right back to having an ejaculation being mass murder because of all the “potential lives” lost. ---
**Author:** ![Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/bbce88/32.png) [@Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quia_Sic_Dico)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/78 "2011-05-08T03:07:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s unlikely that it can feel pain at all, especially early on. It is unlikely, but we have to take into account that the development of the central nervous system may not be completely understood. Also, the fact that fetuses sometimes respond to various stimuli (by moving, kicking, etc.) seems to indicate that they are sentient to some degree. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/79 "2011-05-08T03:12:44Z")
> [@Quia\_Sic\_Dico](#): > > It is unlikely, but we have to take into account that the development of the central nervous system may not be completely understood. Also, the fact that fetuses sometimes respond to various stimuli (by moving, kicking, etc.) seems to indicate that they are sentient to some degree. First, even single celled organisms can respond to stimuli that much. And second, abortions typically occur before the fetus can move anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/bbce88/32.png) [@Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quia_Sic_Dico)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/80 "2011-05-08T03:18:12Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > In response to something I ready earlier, I’d like to know what’s worse than death. Obviously, that’s impossible for anyone to know for certain while they are still alive. Perhaps being dead is really not so bad; many religions are based on the concept of a pleasant afterlife. If a perfectly innocent unborn child doesn’t have favourable odds on being abmitted to some sort of paradise, then no one does, surely? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013.md?page=5)