# Is it possible to be Pro-Choice AND think that fetus=baby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013 "2011-05-06T21:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/121 "2011-05-08T21:48:20Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > No it’s not the same thing AT ALL. A fetus is a developing human being. Sperm that has not yet joined an egg and fertilized it is not a potential human being. > Nor is an appendix or a gallbladder. A fetus is also a developing corpse, with a significantly higher chance of 100%. Why don’t we treat it as that? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/122 "2011-05-08T21:57:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That still doesn’t make any sense. If you can establish that most abortions are done near the end of the first trimester, you might have a point. Otherwise, you seem to be assuming that the fact that the abortions are performed “during the first trimester” means they’re all done in the final week or something. > > In any event, [movement doesn’t begin until the eighth week](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112/NSECTIONGROUP=2) at the earliest. I’m sorry you don’t understand. Movement starts at 7 weeks so if most abortions are done by 9 weeks or by 12-13 weeks or the end of the first trimester then some abortions are done on fetuses that can move. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/123 "2011-05-08T21:58:21Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > A fetus is also a developing corpse, with a significantly higher chance of 100%. Why don’t we treat it as that? No it is not a developing corpse. It is a developing human being. We don’t call people who are alive potential corpses. That’s just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/124 "2011-05-08T22:02:03Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I’m sorry you don’t understand. Movement starts at 7 weeks so if most abortions are done by 9 weeks or by 12-13 weeks or the end of the first trimester then some abortions are done on fetuses that can move. 1. Movement doesn’t start at 7 weeks, which I just pointed out. 2. It’s obvious that some abortions are done on fetuses that can move. However, nothing you have posted actually refutes the claim you are responding to. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/125 "2011-05-08T22:04:17Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > No it is not a developing corpse. It is a developing human being. We don’t call people who are alive potential corpses. That’s just silly. Of course it’s a developing corpse. Over time, left to its own devices, it will become a corpse. This development requires even less input than does a fetus. As you and I sit in front of our computers, we are gradually developing into corpses - not _potentially_, but with certainty. I agree with you - calling people who are alive potential corpses, treating them as the future cadavers that they will be, is an entirely silly idea. So why is it reasonable and rational to treat fetuses as they future human beings they may be? Why is that not equally silly? They rely on the same argument. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/126 "2011-05-08T22:16:36Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > No it’s not the same thing AT ALL. A fetus is a developing human being. Sperm that has not yet joined an egg and fertilized it is not a potential human being. > Nor is an appendix or a gallbladder. My spit contains all the information necessary to create a potential me. If a single celled organism is a human being then I’ve killed far more people than Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/127 "2011-05-08T22:39:32Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > It’s not just a thing. It’s a human being, much like you and I are, whether you like it or not. No, it isn’t. I have a mind and it doesn’t. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Again, if this were true, then people who are comatose, in a persistent vegetative state or even severely mentally handicapped wouldn’t be anything at all, according to your logic. And guess what? If they are far enough into those conditions, they aren’t people morally or legally and can be disassembled for their organs. Except possibly for mental retardation, since if it’s that bad I’m not sure if it would even be called that anymore. You seem to be confusing “somewhat less capable than a normal person” with “totally mindless”, when it is the latter we’re speaking of. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > No it’s not the same thing AT ALL. A fetus is a developing human being. Sperm that has not yet joined an egg and fertilized it is not a potential human being. Sperm is just as much a potential human being as a fertilized egg. And as said, every cell with DNA has the recipe for making a human. You are trying to make something trivial into something important. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lovely\_Margo\_Lane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@The\_Lovely\_Margo\_Lane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lovely_Margo_Lane)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/128 "2011-05-08T22:41:39Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > It seems to be that the Violinist argument really truly parallels the anti-abortion in the case of rape. Since the society of music lovers essentially forced themselves upon the subject. > > Isn’t the argument different if the subject had volunteered participate in the aid of the violinist? > > Or am I understanding the thought experiment wrong. I think that’s a valid point of view, but only if you think that the only reason/circumstance anyone should ever have sex is if they desire/are willing to create a child. As far as I know, the vast, vast majority of people don’t believe that. Moreover, the laws of most westernized countries don’t take that view, rather over the decades increasingly see sexual matters as private when they occur between consenting adults. You could say that by staying barricaded in your home you can avoid marauding gangs of music lovers, and by ‘allowing’ yourself to be captured you have chosen to support the violinist. I’d argue that this isn’t the case. I should clarify that, for me at least, the gang of music lovers isn’t analogous to the father of the fetus - it’s simply a stand in for the biological circumstance of conception. So for me whether the woman was raped really doesn’t have anything to do with it. Except perhaps that rape victims should be given even more careful treatment and supported in their choices (whatever choices they make) to the fullest extent possible to avoid re-victimization. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/129 "2011-05-08T22:48:53Z")
The Violinist argument falls flat immediately due to the problem that he’s a person, while a fetus is not. An unconscious person with a shut down mind isn’t the same at all as someone with no mind at all. If you wanted the analogy to work, you’d have to begin with “a skilled violinist all of whose higher brain tissue has been surgically removed and cremated, and replaced with blank cloned tissue that will develop into a new personality in some years if he is awakened…” ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/130 "2011-05-08T22:53:52Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > The purpose of debating is to defend my opinions. .No offense but I haven’t yet seen one pro-choice statement on here that makes me think abortion is ok. Again, you are missing the pro-choice purpose. It’s not to convince you to believe anything. It’s to allow people to follow their own legitimate moral code. Plenty of people who are anti-abortion are pro-choice. But they have respect to understand that this is a complex and nuanced topic and moral people may come to logical and reasonable conclusions that differ from their own. Pro-life people do not have a monopoly on morals, truth and wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/131 "2011-05-08T22:54:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 1. Movement doesn’t start at 7 weeks, which I just pointed out. > > 2. It’s obvious that some abortions are done on fetuses that can move. However, nothing you have posted actually refutes the claim you are responding to. You’re wrong. Fetal movement starts well before week 9: > **[Fetal movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_movement)** > > Fetal movement refers to motion of a fetus caused by its own muscle activity. Locomotor activity begins during the late embryological stage and changes in nature throughout development. Muscles begin to move as soon as they are innervated. These first movements are not reflexive, but arise from self-generated nerve impulses originating in the spinal cord. As the nervous system matures, muscles can move in response to stimuli. > Generally speaking, fetal motility can be classified as either elicite... > **[Your baby's movements in pregnancy](https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a549375/your-babys-movements-in-pregnancy)** > > When will I feel my baby move? How often should they move, and what will it feel like when they do? Our expert answers your top questions about baby movements. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/132 "2011-05-08T22:59:01Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > You’re wrong. Fetal movement starts well before week 9: > > [Fetal movement - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_movement) > > [Your baby's movements in pregnancy | BabyCentre](http://www.babycentre.co.uk/pregnancy/antenatalhealth/physicalhealth/babysmovements/) No, _you’re_ wrong. In any event, even your own Wikipedia citation notes that deliberate movement doesn’t begin until the 18th week. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/133 "2011-05-08T22:59:03Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Again, you are missing the pro-choice purpose. It’s not to convince you to believe anything. It’s to allow people to follow their own legitimate moral code. Plenty of people who are anti-abortion are pro-choice. But they have respect to understand that this is a complex and nuanced topic and moral people may come to logical and reasonable conclusions that differ from their own. > > Pro-life people do not have a monopoly on morals, truth and wisdom. I personally don’t feel that the act of killing your own child should be part of someone’s moral code. Obviously not everyone has the same morals. If everyone had the same morals there would be no need for prisons. Nor do I feel it is a legitimate moral code. It’s immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/134 "2011-05-08T23:00:09Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I personally don’t feel that the act of killing your own child should be part of someone’s moral code. Obviously not everyone has the same morals. If everyone had the same morals there would be no need for prisons. Nor do I feel it is a legitimate moral code. It’s immoral. Well, that’s nice for you, but the point is why should anyone else give a shit about your personal moral code? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/135 "2011-05-08T23:00:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, _you’re_ wrong. In any event, even your own Wikipedia citation notes that deliberate movement doesn’t begin until the 18th week. The poster I was responding to DID NOT specify deliberate movement they just said movement. Therefore I am right. I backed it up with 2 different links stating that movement begins before the ninth week. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/136 "2011-05-08T23:02:53Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I personally don’t feel that the act of killing your own child should be part of someone’s moral code. Again, it’s not a child no matter how often you say it is. It’s a mindless thing, and will still be mindless whether you call it a piece of meat, a fetus, a child or a shoggoth. The word games the anti-abortionists are so fond of are ultimately meaningless. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > Nor do I feel it is a legitimate moral code. It’s immoral. Of course you feel that way; it wouldn’t do to have to treat women as _people_ now, would it? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/137 "2011-05-08T23:03:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, that’s nice for you, but the point is why should anyone else give a shit about your personal moral code? Did I say everyone had to follow my moral code? If they did no one would have any abortions. I don’t presume to be able to get people to follow my moral code. I simply stated that in MY moral code abortion is not acceptable. Don’t twist my words around please. Also please don’t be condescending with me. Who gave YOU the right to ridicule my morals and values??? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/138 "2011-05-08T23:04:21Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I wouldn’t disagree. **Human rights attach to a sentient mind/personality**. A brainless body is not human. A body with a non-functioning brain is not human. The bolded is a complete falsehood, and I challenge you to find me where human rights are constrained by sentience. If they were, then they wouldn’t be human rights, and would extend to most every animal. Human rights are thusly called as such because they are rights afforded to all _humans_. > [@](#): > > Disagree: even the severely mentally handicapped have operating higher brain functions, even if those functions are impaired, thus they are logically and morally distinct from things with human DNA which do not have higher brain function at all. Higher brain functions =/= having a mind. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/139 "2011-05-08T23:04:24Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Who gave YOU the right to ridicule my morals and values??? The First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/140 "2011-05-08T23:04:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Again, it’s not a child no matter how often you say it is. It’s a mindless thing, and will still be mindless whether you call it a piece of meat, a fetus, a child or a shoggoth. The word games the anti-abortionists are so fond of are ultimately meaningless. > > Of course you feel that way; it wouldn’t do to have to treat women as _people_ now, would it? Sorry just because YOU say it’s not a person doesn’t mean it’s not. It’s a human being that is about to be murdered by it’s own mother. I never said women were not people. Stop making assumptions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013.md?page=8)