# Is it possible to be Pro-Choice AND think that fetus=baby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013 "2011-05-06T21:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/161 "2011-05-08T23:25:09Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Limited rights, not no rights. It’s illegal to harvest organs from a deceased person’s body, even if (s)he has no family to object, and even if (s)he did not specifically say that his/her organs couldn’t be harvested upon death. Right… because they didn’t consent to organ donation when alive. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/162 "2011-05-08T23:25:38Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Limited rights, not no rights. It’s illegal to harvest organs from a deceased person’s body, even if (s)he has no family to object, and even if (s)he did not specifically say that his/her organs couldn’t be harvested upon death. Depends on jurisdiction: your statement is false in many first world countries, such as Spain, Austria, and Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/163 "2011-05-08T23:25:45Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > So what if the the fetus was murdering it’s mother? Where do you draw the line on the health of the mother? Would you condone (even grudgingly) abortion to save the mother? > > If so, you then accept that there is a line where abortion is ok and that you and I draw the line differently. Then it is no longer so black and white- we are now exploring those shades of gray. Some moms choose to continue a pregnancy that puts their life at risk, some do not. Do you respect that? If so, who gets to make the choice- the state? The doctors? The woman? If it’s the woman- then it’s another example of supporting the mother’s right to choose what happens to her body. > > If not, then you are putting the rights of the fetus ahead of the mother. What is the justification for that? The “innocence” of the fetus trumps the well being of the mother? That to me is immoral. Abortion to save the mother is completley different. I agree that in the case of a tubal pregnancy the pregnancy should be ended. Abortion because the mother had sex without protection is entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lovely\_Margo\_Lane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@The\_Lovely\_Margo\_Lane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lovely_Margo_Lane)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/164 "2011-05-08T23:25:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Violinist argument falls flat immediately due to the problem that he’s a person, while a fetus is not. An unconscious person with a shut down mind isn’t the same at all as someone with no mind at all. If you wanted the analogy to work, you’d have to begin with “a skilled violinist all of whose higher brain tissue has been surgically removed and cremated, and replaced with blank cloned tissue that will develop into a new personality in some years if he is awakened…” The whole point of bringing that argument up\*\* in this thread\*\* is to show how a pro-choice viewpoint doesn’t need to rest on the belief/fact that a fetus isn’t a person. Which is what the OP asked. As for me, none of what **classyladyhp** says makes a difference in how I feel about whether abortion should be legal, safe and available. If an 8-week fetus could play mozart or address the UN, **I’d still say it should be legal** for the woman carrying it to abort. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/165 "2011-05-08T23:30:24Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > And having a mind has nothing to do with being human. Dogs have minds. Does that make them human? No, but it is what gives them more rights than a rock. Because they have minds, and a rock doesn’t. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, they can’t. If this were true, there wouldn’t be an organ shortage. No, most people die in a way that doesn’t leave many useful organs. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’m trying not to come off as abrasive, but perhaps you should take a basic biology class. A fetus isn’t a “potential” human. It is a human, whether or not you choose to accept that fact (and I have a sneaky suspicion no matter how many sources I provide you, that you won’t accept it). I would suggest, at the very least, [brushing up on embryology](http://www.embryology.ch/indexen.html). It is however not a person, which is what matters here. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/166 "2011-05-08T23:30:48Z")
> [@The\_Lovely\_Margo\_Lane](#): > > The whole point of bringing that argument up\*\* in this thread\*\* is to show how a pro-choice viewpoint doesn’t need to rest on the belief/fact that a fetus isn’t a person. Which is what the OP asked. > > As for me, none of what **classyladyhp** says makes a difference in how I feel about whether abortion should be legal, safe and available. If an 8-week fetus could play mozart or address the UN, **I’d still say it should be legal** for the woman carrying it to abort. I understand that. It seems that many pro-choicers don’t care that the baby is a human being and is alive. What they care about is that the mother should be allowed to kill her baby if she feels like it. ---
**Author:** ![Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/bbce88/32.png) [@Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quia_Sic_Dico)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/167 "2011-05-08T23:30:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s easy, since I already have done so repeatedly. Organ donation. We can disassemble a mindless human for parts. Can we though? I’m not aware of any country (with the possible exception of Holland) which allows the active killing or dissemblement of live babies born with anencephaly, or other humans with a pulse and no brain activity. I’m not saying that I think it should be illegal (I don’t), just that there seems to be some disagreement regarding which attributes (human DNA or conscience) qualifies someone for human rights. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/168 "2011-05-08T23:32:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, but it gives them more rights than a rock. Because they have minds, and a rock doesn’t. > > No, most people die in a way that doesn’t leave many useful organs. > It is however not a person, which is what matters here. A person is human. A person is part of the human species. A person is not a dog or an insect. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lovely\_Margo\_Lane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@The\_Lovely\_Margo\_Lane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lovely_Margo_Lane)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/169 "2011-05-08T23:34:50Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I understand that. It seems that many pro-choicers don’t care that the baby is a human being and is alive. What they care about is that the mother should be allowed to kill her baby if she feels like it. Fair enough. I would state it differently: A baby, though it is a human being and alive, does not have the right to be supported by and within the body of its mother. The mother may have a moral obligation to support it, but the state has no business legislating that obligation. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/170 "2011-05-08T23:36:46Z")
> [@Quia\_Sic\_Dico](#): > > Can we though? I’m not aware of any country (with the possible exception of Holland) which allows the active killing or dissemblement of live babies born with anencephaly, or other humans with a pulse and no brain activity. Live babies with anencephaly inevitably die within hours or days, so if you don’t abort them before birth there’s no point in killing them. I doubt the issue has come up. And the term for a human “with a pulse and no brain activity” is “brain dead”; which are exactly the sort of bodies that get harvested. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/171 "2011-05-08T23:37:04Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > And gun rights/gun control. And gay marriage. And a host of other issues. No, those are not in the same vein. Abortion is the only issue in which you’ll find people play the “don’t force your morals on me!” game when the like of another human is on the line. If I were to try to make that argument in regards to, say, child sacrifice, further adding in how I should be entitled to operate according to my own belief, the same individuals spouting this line about not forcing their morals on someone else will instantly drop the line and force me to adhere to a moral code in which child sacrifice is wrong and thusly not allowed. Everyone in this thread knows this. And if you were going to be consistent, then you would have to necessarily argue that while you don’t agree with my moral stance, you will leave me to my own will. But you wouldn’t. > [@](#): > > Whose definition, again? I didn’t see where you quoted someone who’s authoritative over me on that subject. As we’re discussing MORAL views, and not LEGAL ones, I think you’ll have a hard time. [This.](http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Pages/WhatareHumanRights.aspx) > [@](#): > > Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, whatever our nationality, place of residence, sex, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, language, or any other status. I see nothing about sentience. Also, no, I’m not going to get into a debate on morality, because you’ll just claim that everyone should be entitled to their own views. Except, of course, when you find those views abhorrent. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/172 "2011-05-08T23:39:42Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > A person is human. No, a person is a creature with a human level mind or greater; the term would apply just as much to an alien, an artificial intelligence of the right sort, or an enhanced animal. And “human” does not mean “person”; a human with enough of a mental deficit is not a person despite being human. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/173 "2011-05-08T23:40:04Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Abortion to save the mother is completley different. I agree that in the case of a tubal pregnancy the pregnancy should be ended. Abortion because the mother had sex without protection is entirely different. Right- so you do agree that there are occurrences where “murdering” the “baby” is ok. What about pre-eclampsia or other health concerns that happen later in pregnancy? So why then is it so hard for you see that other people believe that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy than you do? And that you could be less condescending by treating people who draw a different line than you do as better than criminals who have no morals (or your favorite: “different morals”). Even you recognize that abortion has gray zones. You have worked them out for yourself, which you are entitled to. But how can you have such an arrogant attitude that you have worked them out for everyone? Frankly, I’m really comfortable with my moral decisions relating to abortion, but I do not deny you, or Der Trihs for that matter, the right to yours. What gives you the inside scoop on universal truth? It’s attitudes like yours that I find immoral- not your personal attitude on abortion, but your belief that you have truth figured out for us all. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/174 "2011-05-08T23:40:36Z")
[Quote=Zeriel] Depends on jurisdiction: your statement is false in many first world countries, such as Spain, Austria, and Sweden. [/quote] I live in the United States, where it’s not false, and is why I specificually asked Der Trihs where he lives where this isn’t so. And as he apparently lives in the United States, as well, then I can only surmise he doesn’t know what he’s talking about on this issue. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, but it is what gives them more rights than a rock. Because they have minds, and a rock doesn’t. Or, you have more rights than a rock, because you’re a human and a rock is, well… a rock. > [@](#): > > No, most people die in a way that doesn’t leave many useful organs. No, they don’t. > [@](#): > > It is however not a person, which is what matters here. I asked you this before, but could you please define a person for me. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/175 "2011-05-08T23:41:47Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I see nothing about sentience. “Beings”. As opposed to pieces of meat that happen to have human DNA; an organ in an ice chest has no human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/176 "2011-05-08T23:42:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, a person is a creature with a human level mind or greater; the term would apply just as much to an alien, an artificial intelligence of the right sort, or an enhanced animal. And “human” does not mean “person”; a human with enough of a mental deficit is not a person despite being human. Well, isn’t that just lovely. I don’t want to invoke Godwin’s law, but it’s nice to know that you think that if someone is mentally handicapped enough that they should lose their status as a person, and thusly any consideration under the law. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/177 "2011-05-08T23:44:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Beings”. As opposed to pieces of meat that happen to have human DNA; an organ in an ice chest has no human rights. You know, your posts are becoming more and more ridiculous. So now you equate the unborn to pieces of meat? Surely, you’re just being facetious, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/178 "2011-05-08T23:45:47Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Or, you have more rights than a rock, because you’re a human and a rock is, well… a rock. And a dog also has more rights than a rock. Because it is an aware, feeling creature and a rock isn’t. Just like a fetus isn’t. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, they don’t. Yes, they do. People who die of old age, cancer, disease, toxins end up with worn out or contaminated organs that are useless. Only a minority of people die in a way that doesn’t ruin their organs in the process, since it’s that very damage to their organs that kills them in the first place. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I asked you this before, but could you please define a person for me. A self aware thinking entity. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Well, isn’t that just lovely. I don’t want to invoke Godwin’s law, but it’s nice to know that you think that if someone is mentally handicapped enough that they should lose their status as a person, and thusly any consideration under the law. They do; it’s called “brain death”. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > You know, your posts are becoming more and more ridiculous. So now you equate the unborn to pieces of meat? Surely, you’re just being facetious, yes? Hardly. Why would you think that? They ARE just mindless pieces of meat, just as my liver is. ---
**Author:** ![Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/bbce88/32.png) [@Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quia_Sic_Dico)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/179 "2011-05-08T23:46:16Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > A person is human. A person is part of the human species. A person is not a dog or an insect. Ok, but what about a chimpanze or an orangutan? They appear to have emotions, a certain level of intelligence, and even a sense of personality, judging by their patterns of social interaction. Could they not be persons as well? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013/180 "2011-05-08T23:48:30Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > [This.](http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Pages/WhatareHumanRights.aspx) > I see nothing about sentience. By and large, I would say that’s because humans are the sole species considered sentient to the extent of fulfilling that particular category. By and large it’s simpler (not to mention, more rhetorically attractive) to use “human” than “being whose sentience exceeds a line we can’t define too well”. Like as not, if we had some reason for humans no longer being solely included in that club (let’s say, if sentient aliens land, or dolphins or something march up and demand rights) such language would be altered to “sentient”, or some such term. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-pro-choice-and-think-that-fetus-baby/581013.md?page=10)