# Is it possible to be unable to do critical thinking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525 "2010-06-09T11:26:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/41 "2010-06-11T00:34:52Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Somewhat off topic, but here is an example of “people are stupid”. Someone bought some ground seeds rather than the whole seeds the recipe called for. They wanted to know how much of the ground seed they should use in place of the whole. A great question that I was happy to answer. I look at the packages, which are sold by volume, to see how much the seeds weighed. **Turns out that 1/2 cup of the whole seeds were 1 oz and 1/2 cup of the ground seeds weighed the same. I told her she can just use the same amount as the same volume of each weighed the same.** She did not understand and said “but I’m not measuring by weight, it’s in teaspoons”. I could see how she could be confused, **so I said that a teaspoon of each weighed the same** so she could just use the same measurement as in the recipe. “No”, she insisted, “I’m not doing it by weight”. At that point I just gave up. Note that this was not about how ground seeds might have more flavor, as we had already discussed that. > > She seemed perfectly intelligent and had mentioned how she thought whole seeds wouldn’t pack as densely as ground (my first thought as well). But she could not grasp that if a teaspoon of each weighed the same they had the same amount of “stuff”. [bolding mine]WTF? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/42 "2010-06-11T00:37:59Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I agree with those who’ve said that the OP’s questions don’t come anywhere close to measuring critical thinking as the phrase is normally used. “I don’t know/remember” could easily be the response of an indifferent or lazy person, not a stupid one. Or someone who is sheltered or unimaginative. This reminded me of people who for various reasons, don’t respond well to questions in the school environment, and other similar circumstances. It may not be an indicator of their ability to think at all. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/43 "2010-06-11T00:54:04Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > [bolding mine]WTF? The difference may be negligible for small seeds. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/44 "2010-06-11T00:57:41Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > [bolding mine]WTF? Yes, it is true that if a 1/2 cup of each weighed the same then a teaspoon each weighs the same as well. Maybe your confusion is that I used two different measurements of volume? The package was 1/2 cup which is why I used it the first time, and when she mentioned teaspoons I used that instead because it was clear she had not grasped that if two different items of the same volume weigh the same then a teaspoon of each would have the same amount of “stuff”. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/45 "2010-06-11T01:07:44Z")
It turns out I just can’t fucking read.:o ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/46 "2010-06-11T01:09:01Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Yes, it is true that if a 1/2 cup of each weighed the same then a teaspoon each weighs the same as well. Maybe your confusion is that I used two different measurements of volume? The package was 1/2 cup which is why I used it the first time, and when she mentioned teaspoons I used that instead because it was clear she had not grasped that if two different items of the same volume weigh the same then a teaspoon of each would have the same amount of “stuff”. It gets worse. I couldn’t explain to one person that if the sour cream is sold by the pound, and the recipe called for 1 cup, they just had to use a measuring cup to get the right amount. He insisted that wouldn’t work right for something sold by weight. Not only that, he was sure that the container he was looking at contained about one cup, but it still wouldn’t work because of the weight on the label. ---
**Author:** ![Generic\_Userid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9fc29f/32.png) [@Generic\_Userid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Generic_Userid)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/47 "2010-06-11T01:56:30Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Hmm, maybe I need to clarify a little bit. In the rubric I have, the levels of critical thinking would result in a series of questions like this: > > Remembering: Define X. > Understanding: Give examples of X. > Applying: Is X the same or different in another country? > Analyzing: How would you change part of X to get a better result or lessen negative effects? > Evaluating: Defend or refute this argument: X is the best choice only because the other options are worse. > Creating: Create an original experiment that proves X is false. How is “define X” a test of critical thought? Memorization, which 99.999% of vocabulary skills is comprised of, is not critical thought. Also, “give examples of X” is not a valid test of critical thought either unless you can assert with substantial authority that the testee has measurable knowledge of X in the first place. Regardless of what X is, that is still not a test of critical thinking, it is a test of experience and knowledge (i.e., storage of facts and/or information). Critical thought is the ability to perform logical manipulation of ideas, both abstract and concrete, and to create reasonable conclusions based on those logical manipulations of ideas. I don’t see any question before the “Analyzing” level that touches on critical thought at all. And the last one, “creating”, is definitely not a valid measurement of critical thinking ability (keyword there is “original” which in common usage means ‘has not been created before’). I would hope that you don’t actually mean ‘original’ but simply mean that the experiment (logical process) you want the student to cough up is one which the student has not previously memorized and can in fact be logically deduced from first principles. The answer (experiment to prove or disprove X) does not in any way have to be “original” (i.e., never before created), just logical, in order to be valid. Based on what you’ve provided, I think the defect, if any, lies in your processes, and not in the students (regardless of how stupid they may be 😉 ). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/48 "2010-06-11T02:16:10Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m not so sure that question is the smoking gun. > > I think many people would answer as though the question were “Name a food that you _really like_”. If you take it at face value and try to think of what’s #1, it’s tough; I can’t think of what’s #1 for me. I agree, but didn’t make it clear with my overly rhetorical response. I don’t understand the OP, either. How can you have a classroom of children who cannot name a favourite food, unless they’re all children with extremely severe mental disabilities? Since that doesn’t seem to be the case, I don’t believe the OP is giving us a clear picture of what the hell is going on in his classroom. Nobody on the planetwith an IQ above, say, 60, would really be unable to name a food they liked. And that’s not “critical thinking,” anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/49 "2010-06-11T02:44:09Z")
**you with the face** , your examples best illustrate questions that test critical thinking. I always liked to teach the short story “The Lady or the Tiger” because almost all of my students had opinions on which one came from behind the door. And they were sometimes passionate in backing up their thinking. Even small children can be taught critical thinking skills on subjects that are relevant to them. But the questions must be clear to the person who is asked – no matter what the age. > [@](#): > > **Superhal** : I feel that some of my past students were born with a birth defect or had some sort of head trauma that rendered them incapable of doing even the lowest levels of critical thinking. Everyone is born incapable of doing even the lowest level of critical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/50 "2010-06-11T14:31:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t understand the OP, either. How can you have a classroom of children who cannot name a favourite food, unless they’re all children with extremely severe mental disabilities? Since that doesn’t seem to be the case, I don’t believe the OP is giving us a clear picture of what the hell is going on in his classroom. Nobody on the planet with an IQ above, say, 60, would really be unable to name a food they liked. I can think of two (overlapping) possibilities: 1. The students are disaffected. They aren’t interested in learning, don’t want to be part of the lesson and know that the less they engage with the teacher the sooner he will give up and let them go back to sleep. 2. The students view the classroom environment as hostile and are going into “yessir nossir” defensive mode. This may not be the teacher’s fault - the students may be afraid of getting a hard time from their classmates if they admit to liking an uncool food or movie or TV programme. I’ve known student teachers complain of exactly the same problem as the OP - a simple question like “What do you like for breakfast?” gets a null answer “I don’t know” “We don’t eat breakfast”. This has nothing to do with intelligence or critical thinking and everything to do with the children either not wanting to engage with the teacher or fearing that actually answering the question will get them stigmatised. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/51 "2010-06-11T15:34:21Z")
> [@merrick](#): > > 1. The students view the classroom environment as hostile and are going into “yessir nossir” defensive mode. This may not be the teacher’s fault - the students may be afraid of getting a hard time from their classmates if they admit to liking an uncool food or movie or TV programme. This is why I would end up saying “I don’t know” and to questions. From the examples that **Superhal** gave, it seems like he’s trying to teach by making the lessons relate to the students’ lives. But sometimes the students’ lives simply aren’t relevant to the lesson. When a student (who knows his life better than the teacher knows it) runs across that kind of situation, he may answer non-responsively. If the student only watches Sunday & Monday Night Football, comparing that to a scripted tv show doesn’t really work. It isn’t a lack of critical thinking skills, it’s that the question doesn’t make sense. There’s also that the students are asked to put their lives on display and having their life judged. While the teacher is supposed to evaluate the student’s ability to compare, sometimes teachers (and oftentimes classmates) end up judging the students choices. A student who has the wrong favorites and likes the wrong foods, programs, movies, etc. can end up with a lower grade and social ostracism. “I dunno” and “I don’t have a favorite food” is a far safer answer than the truth and easier than trying to work out the details involved in a specific lie. ---
**Author:** ![statsman1982](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@statsman1982](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/statsman1982)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/52 "2010-06-11T18:47:01Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > If I were evaluating the test, any person answering as you did would either have failed that question, or failed 90% of the rest. > > By the standard that you used to respond to that statement, you would also have had to answer unknown to statements such as “Paris is the largest city in France” or “On average, doctors earn more than waiters”. It is impossible for you to know that Paris is the largest cityin France, or that Doctors earn more than waiters, you can only know that people tell you those things. > > The evaluator did you a favour for only failing you on that one question, rather than applying that standard universally to all the questions you answered. Critical thinking isn’t primarily about getting an answer that is true to the nth degree. It is about applying a consistent standard of thought that you believe will produce the right answer most consistently. If, in your case, that means that you consider all hearsay from all sources as “unknown”, that is acceptable critical thought. What is not acceptable is if you apply that standard to what God people profess to believe in, but not to what city they profess to live in, or what salary they profess to earn. Unless you could show me that you have actually visited the homes of everybody in France or vetted the bank accounts of all doctors and waiters, then you haven’t applied your own standard consistently. > > Most of our facts come from self-reporting, whether about religious belief or income or the results of a double blind trial. We almost never see the actual basis for those reports. While it’s fine to say that all such self-reports are unknown, it’s not fine to say that some aren’t and some are. I don’t think asking about populations of cities or average earnings is the same as asking about religious belief. The former are manifest measures, theoretically calculable. If by “largest” one means “the most people,” then it is theoretically possible to count the people in each city in France and order them from largest to smallest. Censuses attempt to count people, and although they cannot be 100% correct, there is a theoretical “true” number of people in Paris and in the other cities in France. That number is an integer, and integers can be ordered. The same goes for the average earnings of doctors versus waiters. As long as we are sufficiently precise about what constitutes a doctor and a waiter and a host of other situational variables, the fact that there is a theoretical “true” average earnings for waiters and doctors is tenable; frequentist statisticians always try to estimate parameters. The paradigm is to condition on the parameters being true and contemplating the data as varying. From a Bayesian standpoint, maybe it is unreasonable to talk of true averages or true counts, but that is certainly not the only defensible position from a critical thinking standpoint. Now, why is religious belief different? I would classify religious belief as a latent (unobservable) variable that dwells entirely within a person’s head. I can try to elicit measurements of belief through questionnaires, but answers to these are only _indications_ of “religious belief.” At its heart, it is not quantifiable; show me a unit of religious belief. Contrast this with populations and averages. Populations have a natural measurement in the integers, and averages in the real numbers. No such natural measurement exists for things like “belief,” or “attitude,” or “intention,” or any other psychometric variable. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/53 "2010-06-11T20:15:24Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > I have to run, but it may be helpful to look at a table or chart of Bloom’s Taxonomy of Cognitive Thinking to understand what I’m talking about. > > I’m not talking about the upper levels, I’m talking about the lower levels. Hmmm… I’ll just assume you missed my previous post. My understanding is that the lower levels have more to do with basic recall than critical thinking. To wit: here’s a quote from some of the material I work on that includes a discussion of Bloom’s work with cognitive complexity. In fact, my employer abandoned Bloom several years ago because > [@](#): > > Bloom’s Taxonomy is difficult to use because it requires an inference about the skill, knowledge, and background of the students responding to the item. Beginning in 2004, the DOE implemented a new cognitive classification system based upon Dr. Norman L. Webb’s Depth of Knowledge (DOK) levels. The rationale for classifying an item by its DOK level of complexity focuses on the expectations made of the item, not on the ability of the student. When classifying an item’s demands on thinking (i.e., what the item requires the student to recall, understand, analyze, and do), it is assumed that the student is familiar with the basic concepts of the task. What follows is a discussion of Webb’s DOK levels (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > **Low complexity items rely heavily on the recall and recognition of previously learned concepts and principles.** Items typically specify what the student is to do, which is often to carryout some procedure that can be performed mechanically. It is not left to the student to come up with an original method or solution. > > Moderate complexity items involve more flexible thinking than low complexity items. Items require a response that goes beyond the habitual, is not explicitly specified in the text, and ordinarily has more than a single step. The student is expected to decide what to do—using informal methods of reasoning and problem-solving strategies—and to bring together skill and knowledge from various domains. > > High complexity items make heavy demands on student thinking. Students must engage in more abstract reasoning, planning, analysis, judgment, and creative thought. Items require that the student think in an abstract and sophisticated way. Based upon my understanding of both Bloom’s and Webb’s work with cognitive complexity, critical thinking skills don’t even come into play until you get to higher order cognition. So, to reiterate my previous query: Is it possible that your students are having trouble answering your questions because of your communication or writing style? Are you 100% sure that your wording is crystal clear and is grade-level appropriate? Or are you trying to force critical thinking into Bloom’s lower cognitive complexity levels? ---
**Author:** ![Generic\_Userid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9fc29f/32.png) [@Generic\_Userid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Generic_Userid)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/54 "2010-06-12T04:55:41Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > This is why I would end up saying “I don’t know” and to questions. > > From the examples that **Superhal** gave, it seems like he’s trying to teach by making the lessons relate to the students’ lives. But sometimes the students’ lives simply aren’t relevant to the lesson. When a student (who knows his life better than the teacher knows it) runs across that kind of situation, he may answer non-responsively. If the student only watches Sunday & Monday Night Football, comparing that to a scripted tv show doesn’t really work. It isn’t a lack of critical thinking skills, it’s that the question doesn’t make sense. > > There’s also that the students are asked to put their lives on display and having their life judged. While the teacher is supposed to evaluate the student’s ability to compare, sometimes teachers (and oftentimes classmates) end up judging the students choices. A student who has the wrong favorites and likes the wrong foods, programs, movies, etc. can end up with a lower grade and social ostracism. “I dunno” and “I don’t have a favorite food” is a far safer answer than the truth and easier than trying to work out the details involved in a specific lie. I so like this post … I have been in such a postion so many times in my educational career (16 years thank you very much). Some questions put forth by teachers – whether asked verbally or written on a friggin test paper – are irrelevant and nonsensical based on the context. For example, any question which requests a comparison between A and B but fails to allow for the response that neither is better (let alone desirable) is bogus. Questions like “Which sport team do you like better?” … ummmmm … how about I think both are equally worthless because I hate that particular sport? Bet you never see that response available on a multiple answer test. Happened to me more times than I can count. Another common flaw in educational circles is asking about comparative value. Value is subjective unless the test explicitly posits a given value … but so many test questions, especially in language-oriented (i.e., non-scientific) classes, involving valuation are left open and unframed, so you either have to assume a ‘generally acceptable value’ to test or you’re stuck being unable to answer. If I’ve never owned object X, let alone purchased it at retail, how the flak am I supposed to judge it’s supposed value? Happened to me more times than I can count. I am somewhat reserved, and simply choose not to share my life story with every man+dog on the street, and I hated … even despised … teachers that tried to make lessons “relevant” by asking personal questions. Happened to me more times than I can count. I hated the students in class that would always try to relate a question to some personal experience which any reasonably intelligent human could see well before the long winded expository gush ended had absolutely no relevance whatosever to the lesson at hand. But of course the teacher would always fawn over the student about how wonderful it was that he/she related so much of their personal life story (that nobody in class wanted to hear in the first place) to whatever they thought they were talking about, and so I hated both the teacher for being stupid, and then I hated the student for making all us normal people appear to be putzes in the eyes of the teach because we were not interested in engaging in time wasting verbal diarea. Happened to me more times than I can count. So … just to circle back to the original theme of the thread … hell yeah it’s possible for some people to be unable to do critical thinking … in my experience those people are generally Liberal Arts majors and often end up as teachers. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/55 "2010-06-12T11:14:38Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > If by “largest” one means “the most people,” then it is theoretically possible to count the people in each city in France and order them from largest to smallest. Yes, but the point is that you didn’t do that. Somebody told you that Paris is the largest city, and you believed them. Yet you just claimed that if the only source of information is hearsay, that makes the answer unknowable. I would have no problem with you evaluating “Paris is the largest city” as a fact if you also claimed to have ascertained that physically, but you didn’t. You simply accpeted that as fact because somebody told you. ---
**Author:** ![Casper\_Jasper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Casper\_Jasper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casper_Jasper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/56 "2010-06-21T20:44:25Z")
Quote from Dogzilla: Bloom’s Taxonomy is difficult to use because it requires an inference about the skill, knowledge, and background of the students responding to the item. Beginning in 2004, the DOE implemented a new cognitive classification system based upon Dr. Norman L. Webb’s Depth of Knowledge (DOK) levels. The rationale for classifying an item by its DOK level of complexity focuses on the expectations made of the item, not on the ability of the student. When classifying an item’s demands on thinking (i.e., what the item requires the student to recall, understand, analyze, and do), it is assumed that the student is familiar with the basic concepts of the task. Can someone give me an example to clarify the difference between Bloom and DOK as contrasted above? ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/57 "2010-06-23T05:14:40Z")
I work as a baker and start work at 2am I find that I have extreme difficulty thinking critically when I arrive at work and for a couple hours afterwards. It’s probably a combination of the odd time to be awake, mild sleep deprivation, and the strait jacket of the routine I have to follow. I’m pretty sure that certain types of life stress really interfere with critical thinking. If your students are experiencing this kind of stress they may not do well on critical thinking tests. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/58 "2010-06-23T07:02:17Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Yes, but the point is that you didn’t do that. Somebody told you that Paris is the largest city, and you believed them. Yet you just claimed that if the only source of information is hearsay, that makes the answer unknowable. I’m parsing it this way: Certain answers, like “What is the largest city in France?” or “Who was the first President of Russia?”, are entirely knowable (given defined terms) in principle. They rely on facts that are not in dispute among anyone worth listening to. If you accept the notion of consensus reality as real, they are questions purely about real things. Questions like “Do the majority of people believe in an afterlife?” do not. It is entirely possible to make the statements “_Everyone_ believes in an afterlife.” and “_Nobody_ believes in an afterlife.” without possibility of being gainsaid, because it is impossible to objectively measure belief. Beliefs are in the realm of purely mental constructs and neurology isn’t up to the task of picking such things out of objectively measured brain activity. (I was just thinking about Bell’s Inequality last night. Recast the above in terms of hidden variables if you need to.) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/59 "2010-06-23T12:23:36Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I’m parsing it this way: Certain answers, like “What is the largest city in France?” or “Who was the first President of Russia?”, are entirely knowable (given defined terms) in principle. They rely on facts that are not in dispute among anyone worth listening to. If you accept the notion of consensus reality as real, they are questions purely about real things. > > Questions like “Do the majority of people believe in an afterlife?” do not. It is entirely possible to make the statements “_Everyone_ believes in an afterlife.” and “_Nobody_ believes in an afterlife.” without possibility of being gainsaid, because it is impossible to objectively measure belief. Beliefs are in the realm of purely mental constructs and neurology isn’t up to the task of picking such things out of objectively measured brain activity. > > (I was just thinking about Bell’s Inequality last night. Recast the above in terms of hidden variables if you need to.) As far as I can tell, **Derleth** thinks it’s an absolutely objective, measurable fact that the majority of people believe in an afterlife. I mean, **Derleth** _says_ otherwise, but _who knows_ what that means? (BTW, **Derleth** , you only have it on hearsay that it is in theory possible to objectively measure the number of people in France.) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525/60 "2010-06-24T08:37:22Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > As far as I can tell, **Derleth** thinks it’s an absolutely objective, measurable fact that the majority of people believe in an afterlife. > > I mean, **Derleth** _says_ otherwise, but _who knows_ what that means? > > (BTW, **Derleth** , you only have it on hearsay that it is in theory possible to objectively measure the number of people in France.) Cute, but wrong. Once we define the words ‘people’, ‘live’, and ‘France’, it is obviously possible to measure how many people live in France. However, no suitable definition for ‘belief in the afterlife’ exists, because we can’t objectively measure belief. We’re held back by the usual lying and lack of prior consideration (“I’ve never really thought about it before”) that accompanies any attempt to pry into an internal mental state. More philosophically, however, is the fact that there _is_ some number that is the number of people who live in France, _regardless_ of whether we can measure it accurately. France exists, and those people exist, quite independently of our ability to count or properly define borders. Beliefs, on the other hand, have no separate existence; they’re entirely in the mind, part of subjective reality liable to be changed simply by how the question is worded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-be-unable-to-do-critical-thinking/542525.md?page=4)