# Is it possible to build a machine that generates more power than it uses? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 6, 2018, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975 "2018-01-06T09:43:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/61 "2018-01-10T20:53:57Z")
> [@Vinyasi](#): > > If my simulations fail to exhibit non-overunity, and if they have also failed to show a complete accounting, besides their ability to perform work, then I have failed to reach you. That’s my only purpose for posting to this thread. I let the simulation speak for itself, for that is best, on my behalf. All of my opinionated descriptions are mere hindsights of what’s going on within these simulations. Your opinions of their behavior would probably be at least as interesting, if not more so, than mine since I already know my perspective but have little clue, or none at all, about yours. That’s also why I’m here at this forum. > > Citing a Wikipedia article tells me what the consensus is. It doesn’t tell me what you think of my attempt to simulate Newman’s device. Is it an accurate simulation or is it not accurate? > > If it’s not accurate, then how can I/we modify it to bring us closer to closure? Got nothing to say about my sites that you somehow overlooked the first time? BTW, the nearer you get to what Joe Newman had, the more likely it is you will come up with nothing. Newman was a pseudoscientist/con artist, and his machine never worked because his machine _couldn’t_ work. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/62 "2018-01-10T20:56:26Z")
> [@Vinyasi](#): > > If it’s not accurate, then how can I/we modify it to bring us closer to closure? Throw your drawings in the trash and try something else-To follow Joe Newman is to follow fraud and failure. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/63 "2018-01-10T21:24:47Z")
> [@2nd\_Law](#): > > Huh? > > Oh, the other 2nd Law. Never mind. There you are, I thought that comment would flush you out from cover … how you doing, still bringing the people chaos? … ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/64 "2018-01-11T00:05:48Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > There you are, I thought that comment would flush you out from cover … how you doing, still bringing the people chaos? … It’s as the O’Jays said – give the people what they want. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/65 "2018-01-11T08:42:37Z")
> [@Vinyasi](#): > > I believe that all successful inventions claimed to be overunity were bally-hooed due to our collective non-ability to account for everything going on inside of them. So, we labeled them fringe and the inventor is a fraud. We do this so quickly without ever considering that we have a lot to learn about circuits. Yes: we know that they can’t work due to what we know about the natural laws. And the way they Claim to work also does not fit natural laws. > [@](#): > > Think about complicated audio systems. Their designers are highly sophisticated craftsmen who have long since transcended simple flashlight circuits. > > The result is a work of art. With only the few differences: Audio Systems do work. They can be shown to work. Overunity devices don’t. We have working theories on how Audio Systems work, that don’t violate natural laws. We don’t have working theories on overunity devices that comply with natural laws. While current Audio Systems are complicated, they were developed from simpler Systems. All Systems worked and followed natural laws. There is no case of a simple overunity device that either works or has a valid theory. > [@](#): > > Newman’s device is deceptively simple with only a few components. It’s easy to think, “Oh. I can do that”. And in pursuit of that presumption we find our replication does not work as Newman describes and thus come to the baseless conclusion that it will never work - end of story, as we return to our normal lives and bury the dreamer/s. Here’s an alternative: instead of trying to solve a puzzle nobody else has solved, why not turn to existing devices and improve them? Solar cells and wind energy are a booming, benefical field. We get energy “practically free” = the sun shines anyway whether we use the energy or not; and building small, but more efficient wind wheels to use on Special Locations is a wide-open field. Both the theory behind solar and wind are established as valid, and the existing models do work; but improving Efficiency or developing niche applications is necessary and important. ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/66 "2018-01-12T01:16:16Z")
In fact, consensus is listed by the 1969 edition of the World Book Encyclopedia as being one of three types of tyranny. The other two are: oligarchy and monarchy. > [@constanze](#): > > Yes: we know that they can’t work due to what we know about the natural laws. > > And the way they Claim to work also does not fit natural laws. To make more from less implies, in these examples, that we can get energy from out of bar magnet if we rotate it equivalent to the rotating field of an AC generator in contradistinction to not normally getting anything from out of bar magnets ('cuz we don’t bother to rotate them). > [@constanze](#): > > With only the few differences: > Audio Systems do work. They can be shown to work. > Overunity devices don’t. Thus, this is not - cannot be - overunity. > [@constanze](#): > > We have working theories on how Audio Systems work, that don’t violate natural laws. > We don’t have working theories on overunity devices that comply with natural laws. Instead, we have mislabeled devices as being overunity lacking a more seasoned judgement of them. Newman’s device is a good example. I don’t respond to your Wikipedia link since - true, they use an authoritative source, but - it is not relevant since they were not testing Newman’s device. Instead, they were testing their own version of Newman’s device without his authorization yet calling it Newman’s. They honestly admit to this in a round about fashion on their website… [http://files.ncas.org/nbsreport/introduction.html](http://files.ncas.org/nbsreport/introduction.html) quoting myself… > **[Talk:Decoupling capacitor](https://web.archive.org/web/20180106080333/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Decoupling_capacitor#cite_ref-4)** > > Do you need any more capacitance than the inductance of the supply dictates?--SpectrumAnalyser 18:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC) Should this page be called electrical decoupling to include other forms of decoupling as well as capacitors?--SpectrumAnalyser 19:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC) “Concerning the Patent Office, the National Bureau of Standards admits on their website that: _The National Bureau of Standards provided the resistive load which was connected in parallel with the coil._ This is an example of current wanting to take the path of least resistance through a parallel load, bypassing the coil (of greater resistance than their test load) to a significant degree by cleverly self-shorting Newman’s primary coil” [for an entire duty cycle rather than the last 20%] “and prevent accumulation of HV. Had they performed their test as Newman advises in his book by wrapping a shorter length of secondary coil around the larger primary coil and placing the test load _only inline with this secondary and isolated from the primary,_ then it’s entirely possible that the NBS would have produced more accurate results and replicate Newman’s. Then, the history of Newman and his motor would have read a bit differently then what transpired.” > [@constanze](#): > > While current Audio Systems are complicated, they were developed from simpler Systems. All Systems worked and followed natural laws. > There is no case of a simple overunity device that either works or has a valid theory. Bravo. ‘Overunity’ gets a lot of publicity without being accurate. > [@constanze](#): > > Here’s an alternative: instead of trying to solve a puzzle nobody else has solved, why not turn to existing devices and improve them? Solar cells and wind energy are a booming, benefical field. We get energy “practically free” = the sun shines anyway whether we use the energy or not; and building small, but more efficient wind wheels to use on Special Locations is a wide-open field. > > Both the theory behind solar and wind are established as valid, and the existing models do work; but improving Efficiency or developing niche applications is necessary and important. ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/67 "2018-01-12T01:21:31Z")
Now, this really looks efficient utilizing a rotating magnetic field supplied by a mere 255 micro volts and transferred to the coil through its own inductance of 700 pico henries in order to use the least amount of power (of ~8 watts) to get the minimum amount of current on the battery pack, at V\_bat\_1, to invert into a negative direction and recharge the batteries as Newman’s device managed to do when it worked according to his design parameters… [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The\_Energy\_Machine\_of\_Joseph\_Newman,\_v11\_-\_tightly\_coupled\_with\_neon\_bulb.jpg](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Energy_Machine_of_Joseph_Newman,_v11_-_tightly_coupled_with_neon_bulb.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/68 "2018-01-12T01:33:41Z")
> [@Vinyasi](#): > > Newman’s device is a good example. > > I don’t respond to your Wikipedia link since - true, they use an authoritative source, but - it is not relevant since they were not testing Newman’s device. Instead, they were testing their own version of Newman’s device without his authorization yet calling it Newman’s. They honestly admit to this in a round about fashion on their website… His _permission_ makes it work? Now I’ve heard everything. Oh great, I just rolled my eyeballs so hard I sprained 'em. Now I’m going to look funny for at least a week. ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/69 "2018-01-12T02:04:07Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > His _permission_ makes it work? Now I’ve heard everything. > > Oh great, I just rolled my eyeballs so hard I sprained 'em. Now I’m going to look funny for at least a week. Don’t get lost in the shuffle. They made their own device, called it Newman’s, and the Patent Office believed them. This is not science since anyone can see that a test load connected in parallel with Newman’s coil, rather than isolated from the coil, is not the same device if the test load’s path has less resistance than the coil. In other words, the test load is being tested, not the coil. Current will bypass the coil, by a significant percentage, based on the ratio of resistance between the coil’s resistance and the test load’s resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/70 "2018-01-12T03:50:57Z")
LTSpice file… [https://archive.org/download/TheEnergyMachineOfJosephNewmanChapterSix/TheEnergyMachineOfJosephNewmanV11-TightlyCoupledWithNeonBulb.asc](https://archive.org/download/TheEnergyMachineOfJosephNewmanChapterSix/TheEnergyMachineOfJosephNewmanV11-TightlyCoupledWithNeonBulb.asc) > [@Vinyasi](#): > > Now, this really looks efficient utilizing a rotating magnetic field supplied by a mere 255 micro volts and transferred to the coil through its own inductance of 700 pico henries in order to use the least amount of power (of ~8 watts) to get the minimum amount of current on the battery pack, at V\_bat\_1, to invert into a negative direction and recharge the batteries as Newman’s device managed to do when it worked according to his design parameters… > > [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The\_Energy\_Machine\_of\_Joseph\_Newman,\_v11\_-\_tightly\_coupled\_with\_neon\_bulb.jpg](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Energy_Machine_of_Joseph_Newman,_v11_-_tightly_coupled_with_neon_bulb.jpg) YouTube video describing my building hints… LTSpice Simulation of Joseph Newman’s Motor at a Faster RPM with a Neon Bulb [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSaE3uPOGiE) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/71 "2018-01-12T03:51:41Z")
> [@Vinyasi](#): > > In fact, consensus is listed by the 1969 edition of the World Book Encyclopedia as being one of three types of tyranny. The other two are: oligarchy and monarchy. Oh, no you don’t: I cannot let that one pass without asking for a cite. What exactly would it take for you to say that this Energy machine of Joe Newmans’s just doesn’t work? Is there such a point, or will you continue with this “It just needs refinement” stuff forever? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/72 "2018-01-12T03:52:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Oh, no you don’t: I cannot let that one pass without asking for a cite. > > What exactly would it take for you to say that this Energy machine of Joe Newmans’s just doesn’t work? Is there such a point, or will **you continue with this “It just needs refinement” stuff forever?** Perpetual motion!! _fist pump_ ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/73 "2018-01-12T03:54:19Z")
> [@Vinyasi](#): > > Don’t get lost in the shuffle. > > They made their own device, called it Newman’s, and the Patent Office believed them. > > This is not science since anyone can see that a test load connected in parallel with Newman’s coil, rather than isolated from the coil, is not the same device if the test load’s path has less resistance than the coil. > > In other words, the test load is being tested, not the coil. Current will bypass the coil, by a significant percentage, based on the ratio of resistance between the coil’s resistance and the test load’s resistance. Current Divider Circuits Chapter 6 - Divider Circuits And Kirchhoff’s Laws > **[Current Divider Circuits and the Current Divider Formula | Divider Circuits...](https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-6/current-divider-circuits/)** > > Read about Current Divider Circuits and the Current Divider Formula (Divider Circuits And Kirchhoff's Laws) in our free Electronics Textbook for comparison… Voltage Divider Circuits Chapter 6 - Divider Circuits And Kirchhoff’s Laws > **[Voltage Divider Circuits | Divider Circuits And Kirchhoff's Laws |...](https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-6/voltage-divider-circuits/)** > > Read about Voltage Divider Circuits (Divider Circuits And Kirchhoff's Laws) in our free Electronics Textbook ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/74 "2018-01-12T03:57:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Oh, no you don’t: I cannot let that one pass without asking for a cite. > > What exactly would it take for you to say that this Energy machine of Joe Newmans’s just doesn’t work? Is there such a point, or will you continue with this “It just needs refinement” stuff forever? I’d have to say that AC generators don’t work so why on Earth should I expect that Newman’s energy device works as well? Or that antennas don’t work so why should Newman’s? Or that commutators are a fascinating piece of fraud? ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/75 "2018-01-12T03:59:44Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Perpetual motion!! _fist pump_ So, long as you take this device to its service technician once in a while and replace its worn out batteries incapable of sustaining a charge no matter how much juice you recharge them with for comparison to this device’s recharging capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/76 "2018-01-12T04:01:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Oh, no you don’t: I cannot let that one pass without asking for a cite. > > What exactly would it take for you to say that this Energy machine of Joe Newmans’s just doesn’t work? Is there such a point, or will you continue with this “It just needs refinement” stuff forever? Refining my simulations misses the point: my presentation is in need of refinement. Refining my simulations are extra credit. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/77 "2018-01-12T04:09:12Z")
> [@Vinyasi](#): > > I’d have to say that AC generators don’t work so why on Earth should I expect that Newman’s energy device works as well? > > Or that antennas don’t work so why should Newman’s? > > Or that commutators are a fascinating piece of fraud? Do you really want to go the “…But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown” route? Who said that antennas don’t work? Who said AC generators don’t work? ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/78 "2018-01-12T04:34:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you really want to go the “…But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown” route? > Who said that antennas don’t work? > Who said AC generators don’t work? If energy can’t be harnessed from out of a magnet by spinning that magnet to create a rotating magnetic field just as an AC generator does likewise, and… If a voltage oriented coil can’t pickup a rotating magnetic field’s energy and simultaneously convert it into a gain in voltage over any gain in current by making it difficult for current’s movement to keep pace with that coil’s voltage gain by making that coil excessively large both in girth of its magnetic wire and the length of that wire, then… What do we need Bozo for if we can laugh at suckers like me for believing that Newman is not a fraud? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/79 "2018-01-12T04:42:38Z")
“The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” -Carl Sagan, _Broca’s Brain_ (1979), p. 64 ---
**Author:** ![Vinyasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9dc877/32.png) [@Vinyasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinyasi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975/80 "2018-01-12T05:13:54Z")
If energy can’t be harnessed from out of a magnet by spinning that magnet to create a rotating magnetic field just as an AC generator does likewise, and… If a voltage oriented coil can’t pickup a rotating magnetic field’s energy and simultaneously convert it into a gain in voltage over any gain in current by making it difficult for current’s movement to keep pace with that coil’s voltage gain by making that coil excessively large both in girth of its magnetic wire and the length of that wire, then… What’s next? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-build-a-machine-that-generates-more-power-than-it-uses/805975.md?page=5)