# Is it possible to have an ultra dense city that has a low cost of living? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124 "2016-11-16T02:32:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/41 "2016-11-17T17:41:13Z")
Haven’t read through the responses to the OP yet, so this has probably already been mentioned, but the Chinese are already trying to do this…their mega city of Jing-Jin-Ji is there attempt to impose this. The proposed city will, IIRC, have over a hundred million people in it. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/42 "2016-11-17T17:44:38Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > **Where to you plan to get your food?** > > Why do you want to have millions of neighbors? > > I live in Nevada and if I had to live anywhere else it would be Wyoming. From farmers that work and or live in more rural areas. I am not calling for the complete desertion of rural areas, it’s still useful land, I just want even stronger magnets to pull people outside of those engines of conservatism. Because that is what just gave us Trump. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/43 "2016-11-17T18:35:29Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Why do you want to have millions of neighbors? Because it means even if I have obscure interests and hobbies, there are many people nearby with similar interests. Even if I don’t interact with them directly, it means businesses and services that cater to those people can survive and even thrive. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/44 "2016-11-17T19:16:27Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Maybe there are other reasons, maybe it’s because as I said above, because the area is less dense, people don’t have to constrain themselves in ways that bend to a higher authority with their property, noise levels, business regulations, because there are just fewer people that will care because if they don’t like your sphere of noxiousness, there is plenty of room elsewhere to dwell. > > It does not matter that plenty of liberals like and live in rural areas, that some prefer the type of environment there, it does not stop the clear cut shift away from liberalism and towards an anachronistic conservatism. What do you think conservatism represents? Not necessarily Trump supporters, but in general? You make it sound like constraining ones self to bend to a higher authority is a good thing - it’s not. That you think conservatism, however you define it, is anachronistic is especially strange given where we are in the current political climate. > [@](#): > > Why do you care if cities became even MORE of a draw? I don’t remember seeing other human beings on your list of why you like more rural areas and living, most people tend not to list other human beings as a perk, I think that was one of the features of that kind of life, not HAVING to be near others. But the effects are clear, rural areas are an engine of conservatism just as much as cities are an engine of liberalism. Cities can be a draw as much as they like, but when you start talking about wanting to grind rural areas to dust and coming up with ways that are destructive to ways of life not in the city, well, that seems antagonistic. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/45 "2016-11-17T19:39:44Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Depends on which city you’re talking about. New York and San Francisco have top-tier mass transit systems. Los Angeles, not so much. Except LA/LB is rated #3 here… [http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/08/10-best-cities-for-public-transportation](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/08/10-best-cities-for-public-transportation) ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/46 "2016-11-18T21:41:01Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Because it means even if I have obscure interests and hobbies, there are many people nearby with similar interests. Even if I don’t interact with them directly, it means businesses and services that cater to those people can survive and even thrive. honestly, a lot of what I’m reading out of this is that 1. the set of people who like being around and living in close proximity to a lot of other people tend to lean liberal 2. the set of people who _don’t_ like being around and living in close proximity to a lot of other people tend to lean conservative. in other words, a person’s inherent personality and socialization wants/needs drive their viewpoints and where they want to live, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/47 "2016-11-18T22:12:11Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > If the cities are to be the liberal stronghold, and rural america is the home of conservatives, I want to drain the swamp of conservatism and make it FAR more desirable to move to the city, I want better economic prospects than there are now, I want the decision to stay rural to be so destructive that even the Sarah Palins of the world will strap on rocket boots to move to modernity. Even ignoring your broad brush statements against rural residents, in order to achieve your goals I would think you would want to do just the opposite. I doubt that you would be able to convince very many conservative rural voters to move to the city and suddenly become liberals. The cities are already attractive enough. For the most part cities are where the jobs are (that is one of the main reason its so expensive to live there). The fact that conservative rural voters don’t move to the city is largely due to traditions of home and family that make them prefer to stay in places where they grew up, where they know everyone and where their family is. All you are going to do is further concentrate the Democratic vote and exacerbate the problem. Rather than draining the swamp a far better idea is to gentrify the swamp. Make farmville Alabama the next silicon valley or biotech hub. With the internet and teleconferencing there is no reason that these industries need to be near industrial hubs. Bring in a bunch of young well educated software engineers, of all different shades and orientations. Open a shushi bar on main street an organic juice bar by the gas and go, and a transcendental chakra healing clinic up by the feed lot. Rather than have the 54% of the population that votes Democratic confined to a minority of voting districts, we need to spread them out, so that there are no more safe Republican districts and gerrymandering stops being a wining strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/48 "2016-11-18T23:13:13Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I made a post earlier this year about a blog I read that claimed you could build walks ups, maybe 3-6 stories and 300 square feet each for 50k or so. > > If you had communal bathrooms and kitchens the prices would would be even lower. If you want to drive prices even lower, a dormitory environment would be pretty cheap. I remember seeing some communes in large cities claim you could get a bunk bed, food and utilities for under $500 a month. That’s fine for singles, I suppose - what about married couples? What about married couples with kids? Communal kitchens? Can we have separate storage areas with locks? Because otherwise you’re going to have a certain segment of people stealing food instead of buying it. Then there are issues for the disabled, who may require physically larger facilities than the able-bodied. > [@](#): > > I guess if you are comfortable with a 100-300 square foot apartment with a shared bathroom and kitchen it is possible. No. Fucking. Way. The only way I could possibly tolerate that small a square footage is if I had _actual privacy_. My first apartment was about 150 square feet with a private bathroom and a kitchenette, so I have some experience with the situation. I had about a year and a half of dorm living - during part of which my roommate was hiding her drugs and alcohol in my closet and stealing some of my stuff. The communal kitchen was tolerable except, of course, when some group decided to take it over and you were not invited - go eat somewhere else. And people stealing food I bought for myself. No thanks. That’s why I was _happy_ to pay more per month for a place, even a tiny place, unequivocally MINE. > [@](#): > > If you are willing to have a dormitory or multiple people per small room it is even cheaper. FUCK no! Not when I could be arrested because one of my roommates is doing drugs or stealing and hiding their shit among my belongings. Not when people could steal from me. Not when I have no privacy to have sex with a significant other. Not when there is no chance for family units to BE families and raise their kids. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/49 "2016-11-18T23:24:16Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I made a post earlier this year about a blog I read that claimed you could build walks ups, maybe 3-6 stories and 300 square feet each for 50k or so. > > If you had communal bathrooms and kitchens the prices would would be even lower. If you want to drive prices even lower, a dormitory environment would be pretty cheap. I remember seeing some communes in large cities claim you could get a bunk bed, food and utilities for under $500 a month. > > If the cheapest hostels in NYC or sf are on $25 a night, then a permanent residence would probably be 30k or so for similar accommodations. > > I guess if you are comfortable with a 100-300 square foot apartment with a shared bathroom and kitchen it is possible. If you are willing to have a dormitory or multiple people per small room it is even cheaper. > > But the city government would never allow it. For one it would drive down real estate costs and for another low income housing tends to attract the riff raff. I’d rather live in a tent. A tent of my own. At least then I could improve my living conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/50 "2016-11-18T23:56:40Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Rather than draining the swamp a far better idea is to gentrify the swamp. Make farmville Alabama the next silicon valley or biotech hub. With the internet and teleconferencing there is no reason that these industries need to be near industrial hubs. Bring in a bunch of young well educated software engineers, of all different shades and orientations. Open a shushi bar on main street an organic juice bar by the gas and go, and a transcendental chakra healing clinic up by the feed lot. Rather than have the 54% of the population that votes Democratic confined to a minority of voting districts, we need to spread them out, so that there are no more safe Republican districts and gerrymandering stops being a wining strategy. Alabama already has that. It is Huntsville (aka “The Rocket City” because that is where many of NASA’s literal rocket scientists live and work) and has one of the most educated populations per capita of any city in the U.S. However, Madison county, AL still broke hard for Trump. OTOH, it does have all the other stuff you mention even if it didn’t change the political results. I never understood why sushi, wine bars, yoga and Starbucks are supposed to signal a virtue but plenty of conservatives love all of those too. It isn’t all diners, truck stop coffee and wrastlin’. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/51 "2016-11-19T00:01:54Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I’d rather live in a tent. A tent of my own. At least then I could improve my living conditions. Me too. Communal living especially in small spaces is my personal idea of a living hell. I have done it a few times out of necessity and will never do it again. I would probably commit suicide if that was the only option because privacy and open spaces rank right up their with family in terms of personal priorities. I am glad that many people love it because that creates even more open space for me but I am never going to join them. When I read this thread, it sounded much more like a personal threat to me than a serious idea. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/52 "2016-11-19T00:17:25Z")
Count me in with the tent dwellers. “how can we double the population density in cities so more people will want to live in them?” WTF? Crowds and lack of privacy are the worst things about cities. I can’t see how doubling those things is somehow going to make cities more appealing. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/53 "2016-11-19T00:39:29Z")
I’m a misanthropic introvert with anxiety issues. I don’t do well in really high density situations. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/54 "2016-11-19T00:43:45Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Alabama already has that. It is Huntsville (aka “The Rocket City” because that is where many of NASA’s literal rocket scientists live and work) and has one of the most educated populations per capita of any city in the U.S. However, Madison county, AL still broke hard for Trump. OTOH, it does have all the other stuff you mention even if it didn’t change the political results. > > I never understood why sushi, wine bars, yoga and Starbucks are supposed to signal a virtue but plenty of conservatives love all of those too. It isn’t all diners, truck stop coffee and wrastlin’. Can we at least agree that cracker barrel is less virtuous than whole paycheck, and truck nuts are less classy than one of those coexist stickers? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2016, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/55 "2016-11-20T23:44:00Z")
\*We’re gonna live in Density City, Go ahead and give in (Density City) like modern men, And modern girls, we’re gonna live in the modern world. \* - Tom Petty ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/56 "2016-11-21T02:56:23Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Can we at least agree that cracker barrel is less virtuous than whole paycheck, and truck nuts are less classy than one of those coexist stickers? No, we can’t agree on that. You happened to pick the perfect examples of the dichotomy. I have both a Whole Foods and and a Cracker Barrel within several minutes of driving. Whole Foods is the only business I ever boycotted in my entire life and I have been to them from Texas to Massachusetts. It has nothing to do with the business model itself. It is about the flies that it attracts. I have written about my troubles with Whole Foods before. A significant percentage of their patronage is mentally ill and many of the rest are horrible people that you shouldn’t ever concentrate in one place. Here are some examples: 1. The Chicken Teriyaki kid - I took a coworker to get some lunch at a Whole Foods store in Cambridge, MA. A mother just straight up asked us if we could watch her three kids while she shopped. The request was so odd that we accepted and the mother disappeared. It turned out that the two year old in question only ate chicken teriyaki from that specific store (as in every meal). His father was some famous doctor and they had just come back from Europe and they had to have Chicken Teriyaki from that store flown into everywhere they were. They were sweet kids and we took care of them for about an hour but the request was bizarre. 2. The line problem. I tried to check out at Whole Foods and got in line. Suddenly a guy behind me accused me of cutting in line and wanted to punch me. That wouldn’t have worked out but the cashier did a good job in telling me not to teleport to the front of the line in the future. He was a very nicely dressed guy that was absolutely livid that I could cross the space-time continuum in front of him. Another time, the people in front of me in the checkout line refused to leave. An older married couple was holding the cashier hostage with political conversation that she didn’t want for many minutes even when asked them to move along. 3. As far as I can tell, Whole Foods is full of a bunch of angry, white people for no reason. OTOH, Cracker Barrel is dead simple. I don’t go there often but it is the only place that you can get fried catfish consistently in the Boston area or coast to coast for that matter. The decor and friendliness is great too. My Yankee daughters absolutely love the different style. I am starting to thing that Southern Belle’ism might be genetic based on the jugs of sweet tea they are taking a liking to. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/57 "2016-11-21T03:15:44Z")
You side stepped the truck nuts, I think that’s a win for city stickers. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124/58 "2016-11-21T03:28:39Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > You side stepped the truck nuts, I think that’s a win for city stickers. I have never bought truck nuts myself because they are lame but you have to admit that ATV’s, shotguns and fireworks are just flat out awesome. [Even Sweden thinks so.](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/oct/01/raggare-swedish-rocknroll-cult) If you don’t think so, I could probably show you the best time of your life in a rural property. I don’t live very far from NYC but I never go there because it bores me. Northern New England is a whole lot more exciting if you participate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-have-an-ultra-dense-city-that-has-a-low-cost-of-living/772124.md?page=2)