# is it possible to run a computer off flash memory yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 22, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101 "2005-08-22T13:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/1 "2005-08-22T13:54:56Z")
Now with flash drives approaching 2G or more, would it be quicker (i) on startup or (ii) normal running to put the OS and important files and programmes such as IE onto a flash drive instead of a hard drive. Are flash drives as fast as RAM? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/2 "2005-08-22T14:02:28Z")
> [@scm1001](#): > > Now with flash drives approaching 2G or more, would it be quicker (i) on startup or (ii) normal running to put the OS and important files and programmes such as IE onto a flash drive instead of a hard drive. Are flash drives as fast as RAM? [Flash drives/cards are currently available in capacities up to 16 gigs.](http://www.dpreview.com/news/0411/04111002sandisk_highcapindcards.asp) Re speed, no they are not as system RAM. In fact in many cases they are (surprisingly) slower than hard drives. ---
**Author:** ![wasson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/4da419/32.png) [@wasson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wasson)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/3 "2005-08-22T14:05:14Z")
You could run it off a flash drive. In fact, VIA makes mini-ITX motherboards with a Compact Flash reader built in. You can plug in a 4 gig CF card and throw a stripped down version of Windows on it, and be ready to go. I think the biggest problem is that flash based memory has a limited amount of read/write cycles, so they get worn out quicker than hard drives. The speed at which they operate is faster, of course. I’m not sure if its as fast as RAM, but I’d guess its close. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/4 "2005-08-22T14:26:18Z")
well, this sounds like something that someone with some tecchie skill and a flash card that they don’t NEED should try out. 😉 Hehehe, half kidding, but I’d be curious as to whether such a config actually benchmarks faster than running windows off a hard drive, and how fast the card would wear out. ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/5 "2005-08-22T14:26:24Z")
I read this on Slashdot during the week: > [@](#): > > “A small company from Utah (no, not that one) has announced the BlackDog USB-powered Linux server. It includes a fingerprint reader, a 400MHz PowerPC, 64MB of DRAM and 256MB or 512MB of flash and it runs Debian. The host PC sees it as a CD-ROM drive.” - [http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/08/10/HNusbserver\_1.html](http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/08/10/HNusbserver_1.html) ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/6 "2005-08-22T14:44:07Z")
Direct flash drive replacements for HD’s exist. A company called Wolverine, for one, makes them: [http://www.dpie.com/storage/at3550.html](http://www.dpie.com/storage/at3550.html) > [@](#): > > The AT3550 solid-state flash drive is an UDMA-66 compliant IDE memory module offered in an extremely low profile 3.5 inch drive form-factor. The drive is completely solid state, with no moving parts. This contributes to the unit’s exceptional ruggedness and wide operating temperature range; with no moving parts, there is no mechanism for mechanical wear-out. Being 100% IDE compatible, no special drivers or flash file managers are required to interface the drive. It is a virtual drop in replacement for standard rotating media. > > The primary storage media in the drive is sector-erasable NAND E2PROMs (Flash). Using these devices, Memtech is able to deliver up to 60 Gbytes of uncompressed, non-volatile solid-state storage in an extremely small, rugged form-factor. The access time for the drive is under 0.1 milliseconds, which permits thousands of transactions to occur per second. Cached read data performance is 26 Mbytes/second, and cached write performance is 20 Mbytes/second. And systems are made using things like these. What’s probably going to stop you from doing so is the price. You can pick up one of those Wolverine 60 gig drives for about $35K. (the people who pay that kind of price are people who want a computer to work in an extreme environment where a regular hard drive wouldn’t survive the pounding - military applications, for instance) ---
**Author:** ![RandomLetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@RandomLetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomLetters)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/7 "2005-08-22T17:14:08Z")
You can put [Damn Small Linux](http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/) onto a standard USB drive, and boot right off of that, assuming your motherboard supports booting off of USB devices. They even sell 256MB drives with DSL preloaded, for $60. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/8 "2005-08-22T18:13:29Z")
It depends on your definition of “computer”. When you ask a question about computers, try to be more specific. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/9 "2005-08-23T01:25:50Z")
- - - Yes you can, for desktop and laptop PC’s. Search Google for “flash ide adaptor” or “flash sata adaptor”. The adaptors aren’t very expensive, and they function just like a regular hard drive. Here’s an IDE adaptor: [http://www.pcengines.ch/cflash.htm](http://www.pcengines.ch/cflash.htm) Here’s a few SATA adaptors: [http://www.addonics.com/products/flash\_memory\_reader/adsacf.asp](http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/adsacf.asp) - Most people that use these do so to run smaller Linux distros on “silent” machines. A flash drive is faster than a hard drive but still much slower than RAM. Flash media does have a much-more-limited amount of read/write cycles available than a regular hard drive so they use system configurations that minimize writing to the media. Often they tweak it so that it reads when it starts up, and only writes a bit when the machine is shut down. ~ ---
**Author:** ![citybadger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@citybadger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/citybadger)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/10 "2005-08-23T01:34:16Z")
I was going to try this very experiment next weekend. I just obtained a IDE flash reader and was just going make a bootable partition put the Linux /boot directory on it. Will let you know how it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/11 "2005-08-23T01:34:33Z")
> [@RandomLetters](#): > > You can put [Damn Small Linux](http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/) onto a standard USB drive, and boot right off of that, assuming your motherboard supports booting off of USB devices. They even sell 256MB drives with DSL preloaded, for $60. HP makes a free utility that formats their flash drives as bootable DOS disks. It works fine with other makes as well. I made mine bootable and it’s a nifty recovery utility, sort of the ultimate boot disk. Put a couple of simple utilities like NTFSDOS and XCOPY on it and you’ve got a great way to salvage data. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/12 "2005-08-23T01:38:20Z")
> [@DougC](#): > > - > - > - Yes you can, for desktop and laptop PC’s. Search Google for “flash ide adaptor” or “flash sata adaptor”. The adaptors aren’t very expensive, and they function just like a regular hard drive. > Here’s an IDE adaptor: [PC Engines flash storage solutions](http://www.pcengines.ch/cflash.htm) > Here’s a few SATA adaptors: [http://www.addonics.com/products/flash\_memory\_reader/adsacf.asp](http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/adsacf.asp) > > - Most people that use these do so to run smaller Linux distros on “silent” machines. A flash drive is faster than a hard drive but still much slower than RAM. Flash media does have a much-more-limited amount of read/write cycles available than a regular hard drive so they use system configurations that minimize writing to the media. Often they tweak it so that it reads when it starts up, and only writes a bit when the machine is shut down. > ~ People keep assuming that flash RAM is comparatively fast relative to hard drive read write access speeds … well cause it’s RAM! _It’s not_ - The structure of fash memory has inherent limitations on read-write speeds. All things being equal the real world read-write performance of a current 120 gig hard disk with a 2-8 meg cache is going to be considerably faster than a flash drive(s). [Flash memory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory) > [@](#): > > Limitations > One limitation of flash memory is that while it can be read or programmed a byte or a word at a time in a random access fashion, it must be erased a “block” at a time. Starting with a freshly erased block, any byte within that block can be programmed. However, once a byte has been programmed, it cannot be changed again until the entire block is erased. In other words, flash memory (specifically NOR flash) offers random-access read and programming operations, but cannot offer random-access rewrite or erase operations. When compared to a hard disk drive, a further limitation is the fact that flash memory has a finite number of erase-write cycles, so that care has to be taken when moving hard-drive based applications, such as operating systems, to flash-memory based devices such as CompactFlash. This effect is partially offset by some chip firmware or filesystem drivers by counting the writes and dynamically remapping the blocks in order to spread the write operations between the sectors, or by write verification and remapping to spare sectors in case of write failure. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/13 "2005-08-23T01:52:52Z")
- - - If you really want speed, then Flash is not the way to go–what you want is a RAM-drive: [http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2480](http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2480) - I dunno if this is actually available yet but it definitely works, it doesn’t cost an impossible amount to obtain and it’s really really fast. It runs right into the speed limit of the PCI bus. …The practical problem with it however is not its own but really a problem with _operating systems_: it never gets used ideally because Windows does not have any special method included for utilizing RAMdrives efficiently. Neither does Apple or Linux–though there may be one for Linux by now. The RAMdrive benchmarks nearly 6X the speed of a Raptor high-speed 10,000 RPM hard-drive, but in actual use the RAMdrive never operates anywhere near that data rate. It rarely gets used at over 2X the speed of a regular hard-drive. ~ ---
**Author:** ![RandomLetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@RandomLetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomLetters)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-run-a-computer-off-flash-memory-yet/318101/14 "2005-08-23T02:33:42Z")
> [@DougC](#): > > - > - > - If you really want speed, then Flash is not the way to go–what you want is a RAM-drive: [http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2480](http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2480) > > - I dunno if this is actually available yet but it definitely works, it doesn’t cost an impossible amount to obtain and it’s really really fast. It runs right into the speed limit of the PCI bus. Nitpick - that I-RAM device you linked to does not run into the speed limit of the PCI bus (133 MB/s, shared by all PCI device) since it only uses the PCI slot for power. It uses a Serial ATA connection (150 MB/s per slot) to function as a drive. Now, the Raptor 10,000 RPM drives can sustain about 65-70 MB/s read speeds, and top end 7,200 RPM drives 50-55 MB/s. Any RAM drive that is connected by a Serial ATA is going to be limited by that to roughly twice the speed of a Raptor (with much faster seek times), no matter what OS you use.