# Is it possible to view (without the use of a device or technology) any part of the USA from Toronto? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 17, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284 "2012-11-17T05:36:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![andrea\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecccb3/32.png) [@andrea\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andrea_green)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/41 "2012-11-19T23:06:30Z")
Thanks **Learjeff** , cool calculator…but in order to be able to use it, because the intersection I mentioned is significantly elevated relative to sea-level, I presume I need some fancy sort of elevation map? ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/42 "2012-11-19T23:35:12Z")
[Ok, put on your thinking caps my fellow dopers](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15715328#post15715328)… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/43 "2012-11-19T23:51:52Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Good to know. Plus, Somerset NY is a fair bit closer (and hence plausible to see) than Rochester. > > So to answer the original poster’s question: I would not be surprised at all if someone claimed they could see the smokestack of Kintigh Generating Station with a plume of warm air coming out of it from an apartment building at Bathurst and Eglinton. Whether that counts as “seeing the United States”, I wouldn’t venture to say. I agree. I know I said earlier that I didn’t think there were any tall enough structures along the New York shore of Lake Ontario. But I had forgotten about the Kintigh smokestack. I wouldn’t be surprised if you could see it from Toronto on a clear day. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/44 "2012-11-20T00:12:59Z")
While vainly trying to check out the view in Google Streetview I found [this photo](https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/46669909) (full-size version [here](https://static.panoramio.com.storage.googleapis.com/photos/original/46669909.jpg)) of the Somerset generating station which the photographer says was taken from Scarborough in eastern Toronto. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/45 "2012-11-20T13:18:47Z")
> [@andrea\_green](#): > > Thanks **Learjeff** , cool calculator…but in order to be able to use it, because the intersection I mentioned is significantly elevated relative to sea-level, I presume I need some fancy sort of elevation map? Just use it twice, once for one height and once for the other, and add the results. If you look at the diagram on the page with the calculator, and imagine a second triangle sharing the tangent but going the opposite way, that’s the second object. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/46 "2012-11-20T13:21:28Z")
Yes, but you still need to know the heights of both ends, for which an elevation map might be necessary. And the proper height for comparison is not sea level, but the height of the terrain in between the endpoints, in this case, lake level. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/47 "2012-11-20T13:26:15Z")
As mentioned above, if seeing the water on the boundary counts, the height required for a 20 mile distance (from the map point to the border in the lake) is about 290 feet. Is there a building tall enough at that location? Probably not. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/48 "2012-11-20T14:06:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A telescope shouldn’t matter. The limitation isn’t distance, but the curvature of the Earth. Of course it matters. Just because you can establish a line of site over 40 miles doesn’t mean you can see an object of any size. The CN tower may be 1800 feet high, but it’s only about 140 feet across at it’s widest point. At 40 miles away, calculating angular size, that’s the equivalent of seeing a Q-tip from the length of a football field. Seeing the CN tower from Rochester, 90 miles away (or vice-versa)? Impossible with the naked eye. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/49 "2012-11-20T18:43:32Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > Of course it matters. Just because you can establish a line of site over 40 miles doesn’t mean you can see an object of any size. > > The CN tower may be 1800 feet high, but it’s only about 140 feet across at it’s widest point. At 40 miles away, calculating angular size, that’s the equivalent of seeing a Q-tip from the length of a football field. > > Seeing the CN tower from Rochester, 90 miles away (or vice-versa)? Impossible with the naked eye. At 90 miles, 140 feet across subtends roughly 1 minute of angle. I can see one minute of angle if it’s extremely high contrast (thinking blaze orange spotters on a white or black target field.) If the CN tower is lit, I would think you could see the light from this hypothetical building in Rochester. (If the horizon weren’t in the way…) Distinguishing it from background light or haze might be difficult though, as **DSYoungEsq** noted. Here’s a [horizon calculator](http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm) that takes into account the height of both the target and the observer, and gives you a radar and visual horizon distance. I did like some of the creative answers so far in the thread. With slightly different wording to the question, [Titanic Thompson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_Thompson) would have been proud of the “Moon” answer. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/50 "2012-11-20T22:28:23Z")
You can clearly see midtown New York from a spot on the Palisades Parkway in Rockland County, NY just north of Pomona – a distance of maybe 35-38 miles. Elevation is maybe 500 feet or so and you can see pretty much all the tall buildings, not just the Empire State Building. At about the same distance (but a couple hundred feet lower in elevation), my husband used to be able to see the twin towers from his 6th floor office window in Pearl River, New York. So there should be places in Toronto you can see something in New York and vice versa, but I don’t know that this apartment building would be one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Lazy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9fc29f/32.png) [@Lazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/51 "2012-11-21T01:32:17Z")
[Here](http://www.flickr.com/photos/billwilson2002/6335110635/) is a photo of Toronto from Fort Niagara Beach, NY, just across the river from Canada. The text accompanying the photo says the distance is 27 miles, and only the bottom 18 feet of buildings are obscured, which looks about right from the photo. I know from experience (having lived nearby) that about this much of the Toronto skyline is definitely clearly visible from Niagara-on-the-Lake, which is probably less than a mile away. ---
**Author:** ![Lazy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9fc29f/32.png) [@Lazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/52 "2012-11-21T01:44:06Z")
Also, since the line of sight is over Lake Ontario, the refraction effects could be pretty extreme in the spring when warm air is lying over cold water. According to [Wikipedia,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon), light can follow the Earth’s surface for “hundreds of kilometres” in such conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/53 "2012-11-21T22:35:56Z")
> [@Lazy](#): > > [Here](http://www.flickr.com/photos/billwilson2002/6335110635/) is a photo of Toronto from Fort Niagara Beach, NY, just across the river from Canada. The text accompanying the photo says the distance is 27 miles, and only the bottom 18 feet of buildings are obscured, which looks about right from the photo. I know from experience (having lived nearby) that about this much of the Toronto skyline is definitely clearly visible from Niagara-on-the-Lake, which is probably less than a mile away. And [here](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toronto_seen_acrooss_lake_Ontario_from_Olcott.JPG) is the view from Olcott, with much more of the buildings hidden by the curvature. Also, [here](http://www.flickriver.com/photos/reggies_pics/3204149560/) is a picture of the Kintigh Generating Station which was indubitably taken from Toronto, albeit on the 28th floor. Edit: lots more photos and funky mirages [here](http://www.weatherandsky.com/Mirages/Mirages.html), although from Grimsby rather than the US. ---
**Author:** ![bcullman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bcullman/32/8207_2.png) [@bcullman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bcullman)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/54 "2012-11-23T06:17:30Z")
This is a bit dicey, but there is some basis to considering the area inside of an embassy to be the equivalent of the country of origin. Given that, you could arguably see the US from Toronto by going to 360 University Ave. in Toronto and peering into the window… [http://canada.usembassy.gov/consulates/toronto.html](http://canada.usembassy.gov/consulates/toronto.html) ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284/55 "2012-11-23T15:04:40Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > At 90 miles, 140 feet across subtends roughly 1 minute of angle. I can see one minute of angle if it’s extremely high contrast (thinking blaze orange spotters on a white or black target field.) If the CN tower is lit, I would think you could see the light from this hypothetical building in Rochester. (If the horizon weren’t in the way…) Distinguishing it from background light or haze might be difficult though, as **DSYoungEsq** noted. Whether you could see the lights at night is an entirely different question. I did the angular calculation as well, and I think picking the CN tower out of the background at 90 miles is gonna be impossible, absent the enhancements you suggested. Even on a completely clear day with no haze, its a small gray dot on a gray background. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-possible-to-view-without-the-use-of-a-device-or-technology-any-part-of-the-usa-from-toronto/641284.md?page=2)