I’m guessing the idea is that racism is what’s keeping black people economically depressed, and poverty causes crime.
Not to say that there’s nothing in that, but IMO racism is a very small part of what keeps black people poor these days. (In fact, I would think civil rights activists are a bigger part of it than actual racism.)
Well put… and that applies to both sides equally. I’m not so sure the white community as a whole is as virulently racist as the black community (and especially the activists) would have people believe. One thing that comes to mind is that white america is extremely classist, and way more than not, that classism is taken for racism, when it’s actually non-racial in its genesis. A lot of that is due to the fact that the black community is disproportionately poor, and therefore a lot of classist stuff is wrongly assumed to be racist. For example, in my general neighborhood, there are a lot of poor , violent-crime ridden apartments that essentially blight the local schools to the point where you can just about predict a school’s performance by the number of apartment complexes that are zoned to that school. And, as a non-poor parent, I’d really prefer my children to go somewhere that challenges them, instead of considering them “good enough” and concentrating their attention on kids who don’t know their numbers, letters, colors or shapes by the time they hit kindergarten. And I am really not enthusiastic about my kids growing up partially in an environment that condones a lot of the poor, criminal behavior either.
Does this make me racist if I also point out that the apartments are also overwhelmingly black? I don’t think so- it’s the poverty culture and the reaction of the school district and schools to it that I object to, not the color of the people’s skin. But I suspect the apartment people would just assume I’m racist if I choose not to send my kid to the local elementary and send him to the next one over, with a much lesser proportion of poor apartment kids.
Our understanding differs now. Black crime is not caused by racism today. And as mentioned, black crime rates skyrocketed during the 1960’s, just as Jim Crow was being eliminated.
Cite (pdf).
As “institutional racism” goes down, the crime rate goes up. Hard to believe the one is causing the other.
Regards,
Shodan
Crime went way up for white people too. It’s not crime that institutional racism might be involved in, it’s disparities. Disparities in income, education, treatment by law enforcement, criminal stats, wealth, etc. Most of those disparities, especially in education and economics, have generally gone down since civil rights
Has there been a big change in the black/white crime rate ratio since the CRM? (And if so, in which direction?)
I couldn’t find data by race between 1960 and 1980 – after 1980, per Shodan’s link, it was quite volatile but generally went down.
I don’t know whether I would say, “Pretty well”, but homicides in Chicago dropped from 1992 to about 2004. From there they were basically flat.
My preferred explanation is the decline in lead levels among children after leaded gas was phased out in the early 1980s. Either way, here’s the homicide data for Chicago.
1992: 943
1993: 855
1994: 931
1995: 828
1996: 796
1997: 761
1998: 704
1999: 643
2000: 633
2001: 667
2002: 656
2003: 601
2004: 453
2005: 451
2006: 471
2007: 448
2008: 513
2009: 459
2010: 436
2011: 435
2012: 516
2013: 441
2014: 432
2015: 488
Oh yeah, the OP. IMHO, discussion is fine. Cluelessness is not. So clueless and strangely motivated discussion is not fine.
Also, I’ve heard a lot of talk about black on black violence since the 1970s. I’ve heard rather less talk about white on white violence. It’s well known in criminological circles that most crime is perpetrated by people who know one another. So given demographics it’s unsurprising that there’s more white on white crime than black on black crime. White on White Crime: An Unspoken Tragedy | HuffPost Voices
The way I would talk about this, if I were a white person who speaks on issues such as this, is by strictly sticking to the facts of class-based crime and how it is affected by poverty and bring in race only as an explanation as to support the overall point about poverty being a cause of crime. I think that’s something most rational people can agree with. Those who are of a racist bent, of course, would twist the causation the other way: black people being black makes them poor and that in turn makes them criminals.
One thing I would urge caution is that when white people try to speak only in terms of class, sometimes their words may come off as racist without intending to be. If that happens, the reaction should not be “well, its tough love, don’t make me be PC, black people are X, etc.” which I see too often. Instead, realize that our country’s history of race relations colors all perspectives and try to see that from someone whose race has been the victim in some horrible things in our history, you can’t just tell them, expect them, or force them to see things your way, and sensitivity is typically the right way to address it. Crime is more than just a legal issue, its a sociological and psychological issue. Therefore, emotions will factor into it, and many times you have to be more than simply right to express change, you have to do it in an acceptable way.
The way you skip over that possible offense is to tell people you want your kid in the best schools, and compare their performances so you have a non-racial reason to send your kid to one school over the other. And I have to ask you, why even bother pointing out that the apartments are overwhelmingly black? If that is anywhere in your explanation to a stranger, no wonder they take offense. Why bother pointing that out unless you want them to know race is a factor? You have all the justification you need: poorer school ranks, less graduates, less money for materials, why even bring up color in the first place? And before you answer, realize that the reaction of “well, its just a fact” may be correct, but its irrelevant. Black people don’t want you to associate their race with crime or low performance. If you truly believe its due to economic factors, then stick to that
The current number of homicides in Chicago for 2013 is 492. At the current rate homicides will go up 26% in a single year. So surging is even a little mild for what is going on with the murder rate.
hi What do you guys believe our Asian thinkers have been doing with reference to Game Cube if not trash your compulsive and unavoidable since its legal in every one of your countries caucasian genital cutting? Weve been noticing your caucasian genital cutting for a long time here and yet no stains have appeared on your legal books.
Oh you’re going to get along great here
Homicide data at the city level bounces around. Regardless, it remains below the levels experienced during the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s.
It doesn’t even come up most of the time when the homeowners in the area are discussing schools- it’s usually considered to be a problem with the low-income apartments and “apartment people”, which is a catch-all term for anyone living there. And the reason is two-fold- primarily because their children are something of a drag on the local schools, and second, because the apartments are very high crime and high violence, and nobody wants that near their neighborhood.
But there seems to be a lot of racial grumbling (not sure if it’s the black community or other white people though) when the homeowners (who are predominantly white) attempt to do things like keep school zones the same (and apartment kids out).They’re called racists and a lot of other stuff, when in fact, it seems to be a real fear that an influx of low-income apartment kids will make the school’s performance decline, and force the school to concentrate more on them, and less on their own children.
And that’s a valid point- there is a sort of white flight in the area, with parents clamoring to get their kids into one of the few low-poverty elementary schools, or going private, as the negative academic effects of the poverty kids are so dire.
It’s NOT a matter of not wanting their kids to go to school with black or hispanic kids, it’s a matter of wanting the best educations for their children, and using thier money and clout to try and make it happen.
I assume you’re referring to the graph showing murder incidence over time?
It looks to me that any change is magnified in the case of blacks. When the overall rates went up, they went up even more for blacks, and when the overall rates went down they went down even more for blacks. Overall, there’s been a decrease over the time since 1980, so there’s an even bigger decrease for blacks, but again in times of rising rates the rise was greater for blacks too.
The better comparison would be times when the overall rates were level. Also, pre-1980 data would probably be better indicators.
Yes, I noted this as well. I don’t think it conflicts with what I said.
I’ll post such data if I find it.
I call BS on this. I deal with African Americans and they are all complimentary on my keen awareness on their problems.
If it were true you could flip the equation and say, “No black person, can say there is white privilege because he isn’t white and can’t experience it.” Of course you never hear that.
The problem when you bring things like these into play is most people are simply too close to the situation to talk constructively about it.
It’s like if I say my kid is stupid, that’s fine, but if you say he’s stupid, it’s offensive. In reality, if he’s IS stupid, he IS, no matter who says it.
In my office, where we help people get off public aid, where I have found them a job and they insist it’s because a white person helped them.
Then I insist they sit down with me step by step and I show them it was the result of their own doing. Not because of their race but because they simply were never taught how to look properly.
Yes, there is racism no doubt, but there will always be something hanging someone up.
And in my life, I have learned that if someone says 2+2=5 and then argue the point, they’re gonna lead a very unhappy life.
You hear it from me.
It’s true. It’s difficult for a black person to know to what extent their struggles in life are influenced by their ethnicity, because they don’t know to what extent people of other ethnicities have the same or similar issues.
But you’re right that people do like to force the maximum-racism position to carry the day by insisting that black people’s assessments of the impact of anti-black racism are the only valid viewpoint.
On the one hand, this seems like a version of ad hominem; it’s disqualifying a statement based off of the identity of the speaker; at the same time, a statement of this sort made by a stranger or someone outside the family is likely to be meant with more malice than the parent himself or herself, so there is some validity to taking offense.
If a fellow Rangers fan says, “This team will never win a World Series;” I might think he’s just stating the fact; if a Mariners or Angels fan says the same thing, and especially with a taunting tone, then it’s going to be taken differently. People just are that way.
Looking back through American history, it was pretty much a rule that black people in America (based on contemporary writings and such) accurately assessed the significance and impact of anti-black racism, while most white people’s views of it were inaccurate. This was true during slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow/segregation, and the Civil Rights movement.
IIRC last time we discussed this it transpired out that you had no basis at all for this claim.