# Is it racist? Racial remarks spark reprimand of Nevada official **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151 "2011-03-27T15:42:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/101 "2011-03-29T17:31:47Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Actually, I was quite explicit in stating that others had already successfully pointed out why what I numbered item #3 was an erroneous conclusion. In fact, you have continued to engage in this foolish line of reasoning in your very post here, so I would suggest that you go back and re-read and try to understand why it is a foolish mistake. See my response to RNATB above. > [@](#): > > Assuming that any of the construction workers in question, let alone 20% of them (based on population statistics) are illegal is more a function of those involved in the hiring process, no? No, it isn’t. It’s a function of the fact that illegal immigrants tend to seek out jobs in the construction field. They do not show up in the US hoping to get jobs as accountants. It’s amazing that something as basic, obvious and well known this has to be explained. But there you have it. > [@](#): > > As to the remainder, **TFD** had no mandate to post any content or take on any burden whatsoever. I’m merely pointing out that when he did so by engaging in this particular exchange with **Diogenes** , he was in fact providing evidence that supported **Diogenes’** statement rather than refuting it. That ground is as rock solid and firm now as it was before you took up your defense of it. OK, I guess that settles it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/102 "2011-03-29T17:36:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, it isn’t. It’s a function of the fact that illegal immigrants tend to seek out jobs in the construction field. > > They do not show up in the US hoping to get jobs as accountants. > > It’s amazing that something as basic, obvious and well known this has to be explained. But there you have it. Well, now I much more completely understand why right-wingers lose all sense of reason when facing this menace. This is a group of people who can force themselves at will on to any job site! One wonders why they would restrict themselves to construction, given their special powers at subverting or evading completely any hiring protocols! Why not come and force their way into accounting jobs, if the hiring process has no effect on their ability to appear in any given work group! Thanks for helping the scales to fall from my eyes. I join you in the opposition to this magical brown menace from the south! Is there a post I can stand along the border fence, my Minuteman brother? (Ooh, can I get some of those cool Jack Nicholson glasses, too?) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/103 "2011-03-29T17:39:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, it isn’t. It’s a function of the fact that illegal immigrants tend to seek out jobs in the construction field. Ah. The construction industry is _forced_ to hire illegal immigrants because they apply for jobs! And of course, contractors who receive government contracts are bound to employ just as many illegal immigrants as any other contractor. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/104 "2011-03-29T17:41:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I see no reason why he would be the one to experience any shame as a result of this exchange. He misead my post as if it were a claim that most construction workers in the US were illegal immigrants, which it was obviously not. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Well, now I much more completely understand why right-wingers lose all sense of reason when facing this menace. This is a group of people who can force themselves at will on to any job site! One wonders why they would restrict themselves to construction, given their special powers at subverting or evading completely any hiring protocols! Resorting to this type of silliness does not speak to the strength of your position. No, they can’t force themselves etc. Happy now? But if a group tends to seek out employment in a certain field, they will tend to be over-represented in that field. What this means as a practical matter, is that assuming that a given slice of that field contains some members of that group will be a reasonable assumption. Which happens to be what is being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/105 "2011-03-29T17:43:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Ah. The construction industry is _forced_ to hire illegal immigrants because they apply for jobs! > > And of course, contractors who receive government contracts are bound to employ just as many illegal immigrants as any other contractor. Are you just copying Hentor’s posts, or is this two great minds thinking alike? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/106 "2011-03-29T17:45:16Z")
I daresay there are many more than two people who will share our opinion of your arguments after reading this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/107 "2011-03-29T17:45:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Are you just copying Hentor’s posts, or is this two great minds thinking alike? Perhaps it’s evidence of the elementary logical conclusions from the flaws in your argument? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/108 "2011-03-29T17:47:31Z")
You gotta believe … ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/109 "2011-03-29T17:57:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You gotta believe … Well, our exchange has solidified some of my beliefs, this is true, but those have mostly been SDMB-specific personal perceptions. Whether it’s been especially helpful to the larger debate, I don’t know. Hopefully the consideration of where and how some people go wrong in making assumptions based on population statistics has been informative. Clearly some people struggle with the definition of majority, but I acknowledge that there may be some gray area around what is a “vast” majority or not. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/110 "2011-03-29T19:53:08Z")
Let’s say that we observe three work crews in three different locations: Crew #1: All white people. Crew #2: Mixture of whites and African-Americans. Crew #3: All Latino. Is it not more likely than not that there are more illegal immigrants in crew #3 than in crews 1 and 2? If we can all agree with that, why is it racist to point that out? Is it racist to point out that Blacks have a higher rate of sickle cell than whites? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/111 "2011-03-29T20:39:02Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Let’s say that we observe three work crews in three different locations: > > Crew #1: All white people. > Crew #2: Mixture of whites and African-Americans. > Crew #3: All Latino. > > Is it not more likely than not that there are more illegal immigrants in crew #3 than in crews 1 and 2? If we can all agree with that, why is it racist to point that out? > > Is it racist to point out that Blacks have a higher rate of sickle cell than whites? 3 out of 4 people with aids is a man. You are a man, therefore I assume you have aids. 10 men are standing in a group. I assume that 6 of them have aids. You are a man. It is there for reasonable for me to require a blood sample from you. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/112 "2011-03-29T20:52:28Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If we can all agree with that, why is it racist to point that out? It’s very simple. Pointing out aggregate tendencies of ethnic groups = racism racism = evil [That’s why you get all these semantic discussions of the definition of “racism”] Always remember: two legs bad; four legs good > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > 3 out of 4 people with aids is a man. You are a man, therefore I assume you have aids. 10 men are standing in a group. I assume that 6 of them have aids. You appear unable to distinguish between [ul] [li]most people with AIDS are men[/li][li]most men have AIDS[/li][/ul] > [@](#): > > You are a man. It is there for reasonable for me to require a blood sample from you. Whether it’s reasonable to require a blood sample is not determined solely by whether it’s more likely that you have AIDS than someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/113 "2011-03-29T22:17:36Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You appear unable to distinguish between > > [ul] > [li]most people with AIDS are men[/li][li]most men have AIDS[/li][/ul] > Whether it’s reasonable to require a blood sample is not determined solely by whether it’s more likely that you have AIDS than someone else. He’s got it! By George he’s got it! Now, to be sure, let’s check. Can you distinguish between [ul] [li]Most illegal immigrants are Hispanic.[/li][li]Most Hispanics are illegal immigrants.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/114 "2011-03-29T22:18:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s very simple. > > Pointing out aggregate tendencies of ethnic groups = racism > racism = evil > > [That’s why you get all these semantic discussions of the definition of “racism”] > > Always remember: two legs bad; four legs good No. Pointing out aggregates is not always bad. Using aggregates to take action against individuals is. Saying that African American girls have a higher rate of teen pregnancy is not racist in and of itself. If you use that as justification to not accept young black girls into an advanced education program because they are just going to get pregnant and drop out, that would be racist. > [@](#): > > You appear unable to distinguish between > > [ul] > [li]most people with AIDS are men[/li][li]most men have AIDS[/li][/ul] > . But aren’t you asserting that it was reasonable to question the immigration status of these workers because most illegal immigrants are Hispanic, even though most Hispanics are not illegal immigrants? Why ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/115 "2011-03-29T22:24:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > He’s got it! By George he’s got it! > > Now, to be sure, let’s check. Can you distinguish between > [ul] > [li]Most illegal immigrants are Hispanic.[/li][li]Most Hispanics are illegal immigrants.[/li][/ul] These are not the same. Progress is being made. Now how about this? [ol] [li]Most gay men do not have AIDS.[/li][li]But a higher percentage of gay men have AIDS than straight women.[/li][li]In fighting AIDS, we should focus more on the gay community than on straight women.[/li][/ol] Someone who says the above is not a bigot. **More importantly** (in context of this discussion), someone who responds to the above by saying “but most gay men don’t have AIDS” is missing the boat. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/116 "2011-03-29T22:34:51Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Pointing out aggregates is not always bad. Using aggregates to take action against individuals is. Saying that African American girls have a higher rate of teen pregnancy is not racist in and of itself. If you use that as justification to not accept young black girls into an advanced education program because they are just going to get pregnant and drop out, that would be racist. I don’t consider checking someone’s legal status to be a punitive measure akin to not accepting people into advanced education programs. > [@](#): > > But aren’t you asserting that it was reasonable to question the immigration status of these workers because most illegal immigrants are Hispanic, even though most Hispanics are not illegal immigrants? Why 1. You don’t only check for things that are most likely to be true. You check for all sorts of things that are most likely not true, just in case. And where you focus your checking is when you have a higher than average likelihood of being true. 2. The point made by TFD was that even if most individual Hispanics are legal, in a large group it’s most likely that some are. (I defended this to a limited extent in noting that you can’t dispute this by saying that 80% of individual Hispanics are legal.) 3. The point made by me was that the vast majority of Spanish speaking Hispanic construction laborers are illegal immigrants. FTR, I’m not the guy saying that anyone needed to check anything. I think there’s a lot more to whether one should or shouldn’t check someone’s status than that. The discussion here is whether such a statement is “racist” (with the implication of bigoted) or not, not whether one should or not check the status of these people. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/117 "2011-03-30T01:37:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > These are not the same. Progress is being made. > > Now how about this? > > [ol] > [li]Most gay men do not have AIDS.[/li][li]But a higher percentage of gay men have AIDS than straight women.[/li][li]In fighting AIDS, we should focus more on the gay community than on straight women.[/li][/ol] > Someone who says the above is not a bigot. > > **More importantly** (in context of this discussion), someone who responds to the above by saying “but most gay men don’t have AIDS” is missing the boat. I thought you were getting it. It’s not controversial to say any of the above. You’re trying to mislead by speaking about “communities” now. Of course, the issue in this thread, and your previous contentions here were not about broad communities, but about specific people. So, if you were to assert that a particular man has AIDS because he is gay, then hopefully you can see what the problem would be. Similarly, if you assume that any specific group of gay men has AIDS because they are gay - problem. Now, assuming that a particular person is an illegal alien because they are Hispanic - problem. Did you want to talk about communities, or did you want to continue the line of logic you had previously advanced here? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/118 "2011-03-30T02:08:12Z")
> [@Caffeine.addict](#): > > I was kind of curious as well since I can’t see what a county assessor has to do with contract supervision and compliance for the county. > > Her [duties](http://www.nyecounty.net/index.aspx?NID=267) are listed as: > > - Provide assessments for taxation > - Update property ownership > - Oversee the appraisal map system > - Bill and collect taxes on the unsecured roll > - Provide information to taxpayers and public > > None of her actions have anything to do with the duties of the office that she was elected to. I don’t think I can agree with that argument. I don’t think it is wrong for anyone to suggest improvement to a process or to note when processes are not being followed correctly. Not that I think a person who can see when people are not speaking English is primarily interested in process improvement. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/119 "2011-03-30T02:48:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’ve got a more basic problem with your response. **Diogenes** stated that the “The vast majority of Hispanics in Nevada are legal,” and your reply is, apparently, “Nuh-uh, a minority (20%) are illegal.” > > That is, while it seemed that you believed you were contradicting him, you in fact provided evidence that supported his point. > > Did you really not see that? If you want to make a big deal about what a “vast majority” means have at it. If one in five members of an ethnic group are illegal, I’d say that is huge and way out of proportion when compared to blacks, whites or Asians or any other ethnic group in America. I’d say the vast majority of blacks are legal. > [@](#): > > Other people have already rightfully taken you to task for your failure to comprehend basic issues of selection bias when applying a population based statistic to a non-randomly selected sample within the population. Perhaps I need some educating here. Please explain this “selection bias”. I didn’t select this group. Whoever hired them did. For all I know this crew is entirely illegal or entirely legit. Still, I would suggest that investigating a crew of 10 Hispanics would yield a high probability finding an illegal immigrant. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151/120 "2011-03-30T03:10:46Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > 1. **TFD** went on to try to assert that in any group of 10 Hispanic people, one could reasonably assume that 2 would be illegal. Again, 8 out of 10 is a majority, and is arguably a vast majority. . You know what is really stupid ? When someone like you misrepresents a statement to suggest a fellow poster is stupid. I did not say that it is reasonable to assume that two out ten would be illegal. I merely said there is a probability. Can you not see the difference? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-racial-remarks-spark-reprimand-of-nevada-official/576151.md?page=7)