# Is it racist to like Led Zeppelin's "The Immigrant Song"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2021, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943 "2021-01-07T18:12:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrickBat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@BrickBat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrickBat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/21 "2021-01-08T18:06:03Z")
To me it’s just a song, a rousing and stirring song. It’s not like LZ is endorsing violent imperialism. To my knowledge, Eric Clapton was not charged and convicted of shooting any sheriff. ---
**Author:** ![ArtBeforeScience](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ArtBeforeScience](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArtBeforeScience)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/22 "2021-01-08T18:11:34Z")
> if they WERE offended, that says more about them, than about you That is true, but if I am outnumbered in a meeting room it doesn’t really matter whose problem it is, it’s my problem at that point. I think what caught my attention was the celebratory feel of violence. However, that’s also what makes the song so awesome – I get amped every time I hear it. Thinking back to my 15 YO self, I didn’t actually perceive the song as approving of the situation. More like a dark parable, similar to the Zeppeling song “Hangman”. Interestingly if white people invaded and pillaged other white people… not racist. I think the Vikings often targeted wealthy coastal monasteries. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/23 "2021-01-08T18:17:05Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What _would_ be the racist element of the song exactly? Did you read my post #6? I described three possible “racism angles”: 1) Is the song racist against people of Norse ethnicity by promoting stereotypes of vicious, bloodthirsty, savage viking invaders?Posssssibly such an argument could be made, but AFAIK no modern people of Norse ethnicity are really bothered by such stereotypes of medieval Norse raiders, and I’ve never seen any complaints to that effect. 2) Is the song racist against non-white people as an aggressive anthem of white northern-European supremacy and domination? No. As I said, it would not surprise me in the least if some Norse-identifying white-supremacy goons tried to use the song in that way, but I don’t know of any such appropriation attempts, and even if there were any they wouldn’t change the original intent of the song. 3) Is the song racist against modern immigrants who are being implicitly identified with the savage aggression of medieval viking invaders? No, although I can see how the name of the song might look a bit like that at first glance. And again, it wouldn’t surprise me if anti-immigration racist groups tried to use the song in that way, but as I just remarked, IDKOASAAAEITWATWCTOIOTS. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/24 "2021-01-08T18:19:47Z")
Generally speaking, the Vikings settled in France, the British Isles and Eastern Europe/Russia, and raided most of the Mediterranean. There wasn’t a racist component to it; they’d raid anyone they could. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/25 "2021-01-08T18:28:08Z")
> [@bump](#): > > There wasn’t a racist component to it; they’d raid anyone they could. True, especially since the modern concept of a “white race” encompassing all peoples of northern and even southern Europe isn’t really applicable to medieval Norse ideas of ethnicity. However, the interactions of Norse raiders with “non-white” peoples in, say, Greenland and North America, whom they called “skraelings”, complicate the issue a little bit. The Norse definitely distinguished to some extent between their typical raid targets in European/Mediterranean medieval societies and the hunter-gatherer peoples of remote lands, but probably not on the basis of skin color per se. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/26 "2021-01-08T18:37:40Z")
The general rule I’ve been taught is that it’s not wrong to enjoy something that is problematic. You just need to acknowledge the problems. I can perfectly well like the song “We Are Siamese” as long as I understand it’s a racist depiction of Chinese people. Which is good, as I love the fourth-based harmony of that song. (Now I wouldn’t air it on children’s television, but I’d do the whole historical disclaimer thing and air it for adults.) Not that it seems like there’s anything racist in the OP’s song. But I just thought asking whether it was racist to enjoy the song was weird, rather than asking if the song was racist or contained and racist or problematic parts. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/27 "2021-01-08T19:40:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But I just thought asking whether it was racist to enjoy the song was weird, rather than asking if the song was racist or contained and racist or problematic parts. It’s almost as if the OP was basically saying “Is it racist to enjoy a song about white people, being one myself?” Which is ridiculous, unless the song also has some element of denigration, oppression or otherwise is hostile toward some group. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/28 "2021-01-08T20:11:40Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s almost as if the OP was basically saying “Is it racist to enjoy a song about white people, being one myself?” Nonsense. The song is titled “The Immigrant Song”, and its POV narrator is a medieval Norse raider who sings “We drive our ships to new lands to fight the horde”, “We are your overlords”, etc. It’s blindingly obvious that various blatantly racist interpretations could potentially be applied to such a song. Everybody in this thread has resoundingly concurred that no, the song as written is not problematic from a racism standpoint, and that you can acknowledge the possibility of potential distorted racist interpretations of it without assuming or endorsing such interpretations, so there’s no need to feel guilty for liking the song. We can recognize that the OP’s concerns about the song were ultimately unjustified without grossly exaggerating his concerns as something tantamount to “being automatically scared as a white person to enjoy any song about white people”. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/29 "2021-01-08T22:13:41Z")
> [@ArtBeforeScience](#): > > There’s a delightful version of this song in [ancient Norse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia0vVQnNGcc). Then I listened to [original](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s85y2M615PA) again and remembered how much I loved it as a teen. The original I linked to is actually the trailer for Ragnarok, which I didn’t see but looks very exciting. [The song is used with awesome effect in the actual film too. And the lyrics are surprisingly relevant.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfvMKFx0qqc) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2021, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/30 "2021-01-11T06:43:37Z")
I love that song – two of my cats are part-Siamese, and that song could’ve been written about them. Seriously though, I believe “The Immigrant Song” was written for Zeppelin’s tour of Iceland? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/31 "2021-01-12T19:31:51Z")
In my opinion, the song’s message is “Why are you grumbling about south Asian immigrants? The north European immigrants were far worse.” ---
**Author:** ![Guy\_Incognito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guy_incognito/32/3920_2.png) [@Guy\_Incognito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guy_Incognito)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/32 "2021-01-29T20:40:40Z")
Personally I like the song, and it’s difficult for me to keep from tapping out the rhythm every time I hear it play. Hell, I even like the version that Trent Reznor and Karen O did for the “Girl With The Dragon Tattoo” remake a few years back. That being said, I don’t think that the song is necessarily racist. While the vikings had a reputation for striking out to find new territories and plunder them, they are not unique in that respect. Vikings were probably more familiar to Page and Plant, so that’s what they went with. I’m assuming that “immigrant” as it’s used in the title is how the vikings see themselves, but maybe LZ was using that term sarcastically in describing the vikings? I may have to look that up unless someone knows off the top of their head. Anyway, while the song has a driving beat and gets your blood pumping, it ends on the following two lines: _So now you’d better stop and rebuild all your ruins For peace and trust can win the day despite of all your losing_ The “ooh-ooh,oooh ooh, ooh-ooh” chorus at the end doesn’t sound triumphant, but comes off as sinister and unsettling to me. It almost gives me a “what have I really done?” vibe. Just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/33 "2021-02-01T21:15:57Z")
> [@Guy\_Incognito](#): > > That being said, I don’t think that the song is necessarily racist. I’ve never been sure what that song is about. Probably just simply some “cool” imagery with a bit of wish-fulfillment (“sleep! That’s where I’m a viking!”). I don’t think in those days they thought too much about it. I mean, should we be offended by Hagar the Horrible? OTOH, I saw some doofus on House Hunters International the other day who was moving to Norway to get in touch with his Norse heritage (IOW he wanted to cosplay being a viking.). He bothered me a bit. I’m more offended right now by the juvenile-ly bad LOTR imagery in Zep IV. And put me in the minority - i thought it was stupidly used in Ragnarok - and twice, no less! Made me cringe for it being “twee” and obvious. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2021, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/34 "2021-02-02T01:12:00Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > And put me in the minority - i thought it was stupidly used in Ragnarok - and twice, no less! Made me cringe for it being “twee” and obvious. I haven’t seen the movie, so I can’t judge the context, but this must be the first time that someone described “The Immigrant Song”, one of the mightiest classic heavy metal stompers, as twee. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/35 "2021-02-02T01:14:28Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > as twee. in context of the movie. I thought it took me out of the movie. Like using Fortunate Son for an introduction scene in a Viet Nam movie. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/36 "2021-02-02T16:51:01Z")
Whaat? Fortunate Son is a contemporary song for a Vietnam era movie. Eta: I hadn’t really ever paid attention to the lyrics of this song. But this thread has made me think of “Run to the Hills” by Iron Maiden ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/37 "2021-02-02T19:10:06Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > Whaat? Fortunate Son is a contemporary song for a Vietnam era movie. Yes, but EVERYONE uses it. It and Gimme some Loving are used as almost a requirement foir certain introductory scenes., ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/38 "2021-02-02T19:20:53Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Probably just simply some “cool” imagery with a bit of wish-fulfillment (“sleep! That’s where I’m a viking!”). I don’t think in those days they thought too much about it. Look, all they want to do is reach the Western shore. There’s nothing racist about that. It’s what you do once you get there that counts. Viking stuff doesn’t automatically increase its racism level just because some racists like some Viking stuff. Anyhow, that age was long before any of our modern concepts of racism even existed. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/39 "2021-02-02T22:21:31Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Anyhow, that age was long before any of our modern concepts of racism even existed. 1970? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2021, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943/40 "2021-02-02T23:15:43Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > 1970? Oddly enough, I ended my comments about Vikings by making a reference to the age of Vikings, which had mostly run its course by 1970. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-racist-to-like-led-zeppelins-the-immigrant-song/929943.md?page=3)