Is it really necessary for someone to believe in a god? (Attn: Atheists)

Great Debates
41

Just to throw one more log on the fire, I am an engineer and an atheist.

My parents made every attempt to raise me as a Christian - something that never really took root with me. I found that, even as a young child, I was simply unable to believe or have faith in the things I was told to believe in. I was dragged to church, dragged to Sunday school and dragged to Bible school. None of it ever affected my complete and utter lack of any belief whatsoever because even as a young child, I required proof.

In the absence of any kind of evidence that a ‘god’ existed, I concluded that ‘god’ did not exist. I do not pray, I do not believe in afterlife, I do not entertain the ideas of heaven or hell, I find no comfort in funeral services, I do not believe in sanctity. I never felt a ‘need’ to be this way.

I have, in the last several years, developed an interest in witchcraft, which people constantly tell me goes against my assertation that I am an atheist; however, I still do not believe in magic, higher powers or gods. Spells to me are the ritualistic use of plants, herbs and other tools to exact some sort of desired effect. There are scientific reasons why these things work; there are chemicals in the plants that actually do cause change. My ‘ritual’ is nothing more than the strongly structured habit that enforces following the same practice with the same tools to achieve the same result each time.

As for how I think I’m viewed, it’s a tense situation with my co-workers. Many of them are very devoutly Christian and are often inviting me to events of religious natures, which I always decline to attend. When my employer held an event, and a prayer before the event, I declined to attend the prayer and was met with open hostility. I was criticized and called names, and a few co-workers asked why I couldn’t just ‘go and participate and stop being so damned contrary.’ I asked him if he would participate in a spell casting if he was the only non-witch in the company - just to go along with it and not be contrary. When he said it would go against his religious beliefs to be there, I told him that’s why I wasn’t going to the prayer. He replied ‘Yeah, but it’s not like you have beliefs.’

It used to be worse. When I was younger I was threatened with violence because I came from a very strongly Christian area and I was seen as a real problem because I didn’t believe. I was hassled on a daily basis, and I had to deal with people believing I was a promsicuous, criminal drug addict who was going to Hell - and with them telling me this constantly.

My lack of belief has not changed, though I continue to be told by religious folks that ‘It will, when god wants it to’. I just keep telling them that in my universe, there is no god. What doesn’t exist cannot affect change. And then they tell me ‘god loves you anyway’. What I’ve found is that though I am able to accept that they believe, I cannot possibly believe it myself. On the other hand, they cannot accept that I do not believe.

So I suppose my question is to those who continually try to prove to atheists that we’re not really atheist, or that we’re wrong: Why can’t you accept that we just don’t believe?

  • catsix
    religiously inert engineer
42

My wife and I are both atheists but we also celebrate both Christmas and Passover. We don’t believe in God, but we do enjoy the pleasure of familiar rituals. Much of Christmas is borrowed from the pagans anyway, so it makes about as much sense for us to have a tree as it does for the Baptists down the street. With Passover we treat it as an opportunity educate our children about their ethnic heritage (my wife is Jewish, I’m not) and to tell them a great story about courage under adversity.

43

Your position is a baffling. Can you point me to a reputable journal that documents the scientific principles and successes of witchcraft? And why the ritual? If it is truly based on science, can’t you just prepare the recipe and forget the mumbo-jumbo? Engineering pharmaceuticals is one thing. Casting spells to improve one’s love life or keep creditors at bay is another matter altogether. One invloves the scientific method. The other does not. Being an atheist usually precludes a belief in the supernatural and a reluctance to accept the latest pseudo-scientific fads. I don’t mean to be harsh, but you sound … confused. You don’t believe in god, but there’s no scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of spellcraft. So, where does the “magic” come from? It couldn’t come from the natural world, because we could verify the source experimentally. So, doesn’t your acceptance of witchcraft constitute a belief in a higher power?

Atheism and witchcraft are mutually exclusive. In primitive societies, those familiar with the restorative properties of local plant life were endowed with special authority as shaman. These people were revered for their apparent ability to understand the mystical natural world, even though their grasp of the underlying principles was tenuous at best. The preparation rituals and specialized, if limited, knowledge of the shamans formed the basis for early religions. Embracing mysticism and the supernatural is the first step toward a belief in gods.

Well, off to read my horoscope … :wink:

44

Can you point me to a reputable journal that documents the scientific principles and successes of witchcraft?

No, because the things I do are things I’ve adopted from multiple books on witchcraft and involve spells that help me. I don’t get dressed up in robes and say words and do dances to make things work, but I do have a pattern of relaxing and following the proper procedure to try to cause a desired outcome (can’t sleep? grind up some various mint leaves, make some tea, try to induce sleep. works better than barbituate.)

*I don’t mean to be harsh, but you sound … confused. You don’t believe in god, but there’s no scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of spellcraft. So, where does the “magic” come from? *

Many of these things that are called ‘magic’ are things that just weren’t understood a five centuries ago. We had no idea that ergot poisoning caused hallucinations and convulsions, so it was blamed on the ‘devil’. As times change, so does our understanding of the world around us. Most of what was once ‘magic’ is now explained by science. Before people scientifically knew why eating a plant with caffeine in it cured a headache, they knew that it did… the ‘why’ was magic. It’s no longer magic, but the plant still works. That’s what I’m getting at, I don’t believe it’s magic. I just know that some of these things (drinking this sort of tea, inhaling this sort of scent, eating some plant) causes an outcome physiologically.

*Embracing mysticism and the supernatural is the first step toward a belief in gods. *

Only if I believe it’s mystical and supernatural. I don’t. I think it’s ‘these things found in nature work’.

*It couldn’t come from the natural world, because we could verify the source experimentally. So, doesn’t your acceptance of witchcraft constitute a belief in a higher power? *

It does come from the natural world, and it has been verified through years (centuries in some cases) of use. Some ‘spells’ are used to create a natural form of medicine.

And why the ritual? If it is truly based on science, can’t you just prepare the recipe and forget the mumbo-jumbo?

The ‘mumbo-jumbo’ is my mindset. It’s a psychological trick upon myself to get my mind to wrap around something. Any ‘ritual’ over love is more or less a self-pep-talk to set up a positive mental situation that fosters the growth of love. It’s simply a means of framing my own mind to act in the way I want it to, to not worry or be negative. I can’t ‘make’ someone love me. Nobody can do that. All I can do is put myself in the frame of mind to be receptive. Think about it, and you’ll find that these ‘rituals’ are done pretty commonly and have nothing to do with magic. Someone getting psyched up before a big game by repeating over and over again the same mantra about winning, going around the locker room butting shoulderpads and growling. None of those things involves ‘magic’ or hoping to ‘magically’ affect the outcome of the game… they’re about putting the mindset to win into a player. Do it once, it’s a pep talk. Do it before every game, it’s a ritual.

I do not believe in ‘higher powers’. I know that there are things that scientifically cannot be explained right now, but I don’t think they’re ‘magic’ or ‘supernatural’ or ‘mystical’… I think humans just lack the capacity to understand them. But I also don’t think it’s silly or religious to attempt to affect the things I can. Like oh, my own mind.

45

Catsix, Catsix, come in, this is Princhester. We’re sending a team in a crack team of atheists to pull you out of there. What is your location, over?

[muffled sounds of heavy prayer and the occasional crackle of theological argument]

Catsix, Catsix, hang in there boy, what is your location? We know they have you surrounded, just hang on, over!

[ominous static]

Catsix?

Catsix…?

46

catsix, the old girl, got kicked out of church for asking too many questions and has been an atheist for the last… 17 years.

Meditation and routine has its uses, but only if the meditator is aware the only participating sentience is herself.

How many times do I have to say that I don’t believe in magic before you will believe me?

47

Witchcraft as a form of mental discipline, like Tai Chi? I do something similar, I stare at women’s breasts and chant. To those not listening closely, my chant sounds like “Errrrrrrrrummmmmmmrooowwwwrrrrmmmmm”. It represents a mental progressions as I ponder them: from primitive feeding instincts; to forbidden adolescent fruit; to a poisinous relationship with a woman of unquestionably great yobs; to hoping I can have many more positive experiences with them, and my continuing desire to suckle at them. It’s a natural, cyclic kind of thing.

Afterward, I smoke a cigarette. :stuck_out_tongue:

48

so, catsix, do you have to convert to become a witch? Are you even called witches?

49

I bought a couple books, I read them and I took out of them what I wanted to, and there’s only one of me… so I have no idea if there are other people who do what I do.

It’s not like I’m an organized thing.

50

There are other such people, at least on this board, IMHO, IIRC, YMMV. In the following nightmare of a thread, Czarcasm chases off a number (1?, 2?, a lot more?) of people whose beliefs seem consistent with yours. Maybe Degrance qualifies on p. 3 (although, IMO, your exposition seems more straightforward).
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69167&perpage=50&highlight=magic&pagenumber=3
And LunaSea in another thread also may qualify, provided I can trust the post I made last year on page 4 of the above thread. Maybe Freyr. Maybe seawitch.

51

So if you take out of them what you want to do, doesn’t that meant that you’re not exactly following the practice of Witchcraft?

52

So catsix is reform witchcraft, not orthodox. What’s yer damage?

53

It is one thing to have a different interperetation of a religion, it is another to simply get a book on it, and pick things that are of interest to you

54

Then why does selectivity invalidate catsix’s claim? Isn’t every individual free to define themselves any way they choose? If they aren’t, then the question in the OP should be changed fro “believe in god” to “adhere to a religion”. You can, I suppose, take part in every Catholic ritual and to all outward appearances be a practicing Catholic without actually believing in God.

I’ll bet there are people in this board who’ve gone through the motions for years simply to appease their familes, though they themselves were non-believers.

55

Whoops, I hit [submit] before getting to my main point. My main point is this: if you chose not to observe some rituals of Catholicism, do you lose the right to describe yourself as a Catholic? If not, then why can’t cat keep on being a witch?

56

catsix’s approach to witchcraft is actually encouraged by the religion. As there is only one law in witchcraft, which is basically “Harm none”, and they encourage searching for your own answers, I’d say catsix is an exemplary witch.

57

From where I came from atheism is a lot more widespread than the US. So we don’t get looked upon.

To deny the existence of a higher power (whatever that means) is to accept it’s existence in the first place. Atheists (specially weak or negative atheists) hold that there is no good reason to believe in a god.

Rather than desiring to have a god to believe in, I think it’s more likely that humans want to seek life after death.

58

View it as a mantra.

There is, I think, an overwhelming attitude that the meaning of ritual (“religious” or “magic(k)al” or whatever) is rooted in belief. That’s just a story, the way I see it–it’s something that’s widely assumed to be true–but isn’t–because it’s been repeated oer and over and over. Almost…ritually, in fact.

59

**Is it really necessary for someone to believe in a god? **
No.
How do atheists feel looked upon by the general public? ** I’m fine, thanks.
Why do atheists feel the need to deny the existance of any higher power whatsoever?
I don’t. Wish it was the other way around as well.
** Is it simply human nature to desire to have a higher power to believe in?
It might be easier.

60

**Is it really necessary for someone to believe in a god? **
Demonstrably, no. I believe that those who profess belief in God are telling the truth. Please grant me the same level of self-knowledge (and don’t even get me started about “no atheists in foxholes” Yeah, we try to make bargains with the universe when things are going to shit. When you’re desperate, you go for anything. However, while there may be no “strong athiest” in foxholes --which is still debateable-- there still seemed to be an awful lot afterwards (existentialism, anyone?) just because you cry out to God in your extremity does not mean that he/she/it exists or that you have become religious. If you cry out to god as your baby dies, have you become religious? Or are you just desperate? After your baby has died or lived, are you now a religious person because you prayed? Maybe yes, maybe no.)

**How do atheists feel looked upon by the general public? **
See, the cool thing about being irreligious is that there’s no requirement to recruit or proselytise. So unless I’m asked, the public generally does not get involved. There does seem to be a public perception is that atheist are “less moral” which I find hilarious because one of my biggest areas of “cognitive dissonance” over religion is how unethically some “religious” people conduct themselves. So you’re born again, and a whole new person, so why are you sleeping with my boyfriend? And the next logical question is, What kind of degenerate were you before Christ started running your life?

Why do atheists feel the need to deny the existance of any higher power whatsoever?
I don’t deny it, ya’ll can have all the higher power you want. I simply don’t personally believe there is any evidence for it, and have had no experience of it in my life. Again, you can call me an agnostic or “weak atheist”

I think people make the error of assuming all athiest are out there shouting “there is no God!”. I think the majority are perfectly happy to let you believe whatever you like, though, if asked, they will express their point of view.

Is it simply human nature to desire to have a higher power to believe in?
Probably. Most people are very uncomfortable with uncertainty. It’s nice to have a blanket explanation for everything you don’t understand----just file it under “God” or “the Ancestors” or “Spirits” or “leftovers from a previous life”.

I had an ephiphany when I was about 12, out weeding. I looked at the plant, and had no problem believing that it would just be gone once it was pulled up and died. And then I looked at the bugs, and again, had no problem believing that they were just gone when they died. And I sat in the sun, enjoying it just like the plants and the bugs and realized that it was just a matter of scale. That bug might life another day, that weed might be about to be pulled up, I might live another 60 years, but really we were all occupying our moment in the same sense. And that just because I had a clever brain that could know that I exist as an individual, I’m no more immortal than a dandelion. That’s my personal belief, but I’m not dogmatic about it…if evidence changes, I’ll re-evaluate.
So I file it under “life is strange” and leave it at that.