Is it really OK to have affairs in other cultures?

Siam Sam

Thai culture is a surprising thing. I was married to a Thai for over 20 years and still bumped into surprises along the way. I remember being startled that my wife assumed that I would take advantage of any good looking women that came my way. Not that she’d have liked it or anything, it was just part of her world that men did that.
My brother-in-law has had a couple of affairs that became notorious but he’s still married. He’s one of the dumber people I’ve met and everyone gets on his case for not being discreet about things.

Regards

Testy

A very, very generalised and stereotyped personal account of the Vietnamese community in Australia is that IT IS A VERY CONSERVATIVE COMMUNITY with regards to these things, and affairs are seen as a “Western thing” (along with divorce), but

  • If a married woman is having an affair with a person who is either Vietnamese or successful (preferably both), then nobody will mention it.
  • married Vietnamese-born men are more likely than other Australian men to visit prostitutes as that “doesn’t count”. Again, it’s not mentioned.

This is a genuine observation of twenty years’ worth of close association with that community, and I present it at face value, so please don’t flame me.

It was my own attitude when I spent 2 months away from a very randy boyfriend.

It varies from person to person. When the Albertos were found out to have mistresses, you bet the Koplowitz sisters (who actually had the money) kicked them out; my great-aunt knew her husband went whoring every time he went to Barcelona on business and would question him in his sleep, then ask him to do with her whatever sounded interesting (he never figured out how she knew). Dad never so much as kissed a woman other than Mom. Grandma denies that Gramps has ever been with another woman since they started dating; he claims he’s done a lot more than look. And except for me and the bf, all these stories are from the same country.

This sounds exactly like how geisha operated, at least according to Arthur Golden’s Memoirs of a Geisha, in the Thirties and Forties.

I think we’re kind of like the US with regards to infidelity mores, except that we don’t really care if our politicians are doing it. A certain high-ranking politician has a wife and kids, but just about everyone knows he’s bisexual and he regularly shows up with his boyfriend various social things. Nobody makes a big deal about it.

In Cuba for married men it is certainly more or less accepted, even expected.

It’s not exactly flounted in front of the wife but it is not hidden very well. At every man’s funeral I attended in Cuba there were at least two groups, one for the family he was married to and one for the family he had outside of marriage. In some funerals there was more than one extramarital group.

The former French president Francois Mitterrand’s funeral was like that a few years ago. He had an entire second family.

In India, they have tawaiif, which are dancing girls that usually live at a kota, or a…dance hall? Anyway, rich men (and not-so-rich men) often visit these. I was an adult before I realized they did more than just dance!

It’s not exactly “OK” as it has been used to blackmail, but it’s kind of looked on with a blind eye. Rich man must have his pleasures. The little woman, of course, has her pleasures. Doesn’t she have the home and her children and her dishes? :rolleyes:

Aanamika
I was taken to one of those by a friend. I had no idea the girls actually danced until our second visit. They didn’t do it all that well anyway.

Regards

Testy

Bwahahaha! Your post made me genuinely laugh out loud. Why, you should see the movies, which is where I was introduced to the concept. They’re all professional classical dancers, and dance beautifully and wear rich clothes.

Can you tell me a bit more about it? I’d love to hear anything you wish to share about the place!

Aanamika
Sure, anything I can remember. This was outside Mumbai, we drove maybe an hour or so from the Lela Kerpensky (sp) at the airport where I was staying. The place looked kind of run-down from the outside but inside it was very glittery, anything that could have beads or sparkly things put on it had them. Lots of red. Thick carpeting and a subdued stereo system. There is, of course, lots to drink and you can get snacks and things there as well. My friend talked me out of the finger food as he was convinced I was going to catch something and drop dead on him.

Dim lighting from small red lamps on the tables with spots on a stage and booths around the edge of the room. Very comfortable. There were maybe 15 or 20 booths and tables in the place with around half of them filled. We got there at around 8PM and left around midnight. I understand it picks-up quite a bit later.

The dancing wasn’t what I expected. I went with an Indian girl in Bahrain for a couple of years and she had some dance training and showed me a bit, especially the one with the two tiny lamps. (That one’s amazing!) The dancer in this place wasn’t doing classical Indian dancing, nor anything like strip-club pole-dancing either. If I had to guess I’d say she was making it up as she went along. It was close to a belly-dance but not like the ones I’ve seen in Egypt or Morocco and a very different rhythm. She had those little finger-cymbals things and a very expensive-looking sari. She also had a belt with beads and small bells on it that jingled and a kind of ankle braclet that also jingled. Very nice looking girl, maybe in her early twenties. Long hair hanging down to her rear.

While we sat around drinking, various women would drop by and sit with us. Kind of like what Sublight said; they’d light cigarettes, drink with us, laugh at corny jokes or whatever they could do to be agreeable. They’d rub your neck and whatnot while you were talking. Very flirty and fun. If you showed an interest in one, she’d stay. The girls spoke Hindi and something else between themselves. Reasonably enough, none of the girls spoke English so I missed out on some things and it made it difficult for them as well.

Of course, I was a serious oddity there. I gather it wasn’t on the regular tourist agenda and I’m so light colored I’m practically transparent. They were a bit leery of me at first but must have decided I wasn’t all that bad. The girls tended to be tall and light-skinned, but there was a lot of variety. They were all exceptionally pretty. Most of them wore very sheer saris, sort of vaguely see-through-ish, and more makeup than normal. Most of them were barefoot but a few wore heels.

You pay a cover charge when you go in and the drinks and things are amazingly expensive for a non-tourist place in India. Of course you always tip the girls as well depending on what kind of time you’ve had.

Anyway, that’s all the news that’s fit to print! :o I had a good time and while I was in Mumbai we went back 3 or 4 times. It was much more fun after the first time. I knew what to expect and the girls knew me.

Regards

Testy

Thanks for the info, Testy. I highly doubt I will ever have the chance to visit one. It’s not considered too weird to visit a strip joint here in the States, but there I gather you better live there or be fetching your husband. :slight_smile:

Without getting into too much graphic information, how do you, er, recruit the services of a specific girl? And about how much did it put you back?

Aanamika

I kinda doubt you’ll be inside one, husband or no. I saw no women at all that weren’t working there and I suspect that having someone’s wife show up would freak them out worse than I did.

As far as “recruitment” goes, just expressing sustained interest would do. No local languages required. I don’t think I’ll get any more specific than that! :o
It’s been a few years but it cost around six or seven thousand rupees. I probably paid way too much but that’s just the “Blue eyes tax.” :stuck_out_tongue:

Regards

Testy

Ok, I won’t ask anymore though I am simply dying of curiosity over here. Thank you SO much for your informative posts. It’s not exactly the kind of thing I could ask my cousins.

Aanamika

You’re very welcome. I had a good time in India and got to see a lot of unusual (to me) things. I could imagine the look on their faces if you ask them! It’d be great to see.

Regards

Testy

My father-in-law’s entire second family attended our wedding. He had four childrern with his main wife (my mother-in-law) and four by his minor wife (and no telling how many more over the years). Even when my mother-in-law died, his second family had to attend, because the main wife of one’s father enjoys a special status, even above that of one’s own mother in some ways.

Minor wives are not only for an elite. I’ve seen guys upcountry who eke out barely US$100 a month, and they STILL have a minor wife! And I have no idea how they can afford this. But there is some status attached to being a minor wife, so it is often a sought-after position.

I recall an American friend of mine who lived in the Northeast at one time. He was head-over-heels in love with his Thai-language tutor, a pretty young thing of about 25. He was actually going to ask her to marry him and go back to the US when suddenly one day she pops the news that she can’t be his language teacher any more because she’s going to go be the minor wife of some local low-level civil servant. He was devastated. I still remember the subsequent drunk he pulled on his next trip into Bangkok, and this was almost 20 years ago.

Sort of and no. Geisah literally means a person (who performs) arts, and the ability to dance as well as play various musical instruments was required.

There are still places where there are geisha, although it’s insanely expensive and you probably need help getting into one. It’s said that there’s only a few thousand left in Japan, and this is mostly a playground for the very wealthy, the tops of the major corporations and politicians. There was a fairly nondescript building next to my precious office, which had geisha, and you could hear them laugh or playing music if you walked down the outside stairs. There were always black limos parked outside with the drivers waiting to take home the VIPs.
Hostesses entertain by talking and drinking with the patron, and singing karaoke. The wiki article Host and hostess clubs - Wikipedia gives a pretty good run down.

There’s a number of classes of hostess bars. In Tokyo, the top ranked are in Ginza or Akasaka, and I’ve been to these places several times. The women are late 20s early 30s, pretty and witty. They’re well versed on current affairs and keep up with popular books and movies in order in to participate where ever conversation the turns. Nicely dressed, classy looks and not overly sexual at all. Hands to yourself is strictly enforced and crude behavior frowned upon.

Usually clients have one club which they patron, and will keep a bottle of whiskey or scotch there. There will be ranges of drinks, and hostesses collect if the client orders more expensive drinks. The expectation is that the client will order a drink for the girl, which is either a virgin cocktail or will give some of his bottle. Naturally, women in this trade drink like fish.

They are paid on commission, and there’s a ranking on who is the #1, #2, etc., by sales. Sales are increased by ordering snacks (including the inevitable “fruit plate” which would bankrupt small countries) or special drinks such as Champaign. Hostesses are rotated through the crowd and if you want a particular girl you need to pay the “designated” fee.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. For new clients, the lower ranked hostesses are initially assigned, until the client proves they will fork up money. At that point, someone higher in the food chain can take over and collect the commission. However, once a client start designating a particular hostess, then she can’t be bumped. Hence, they live and die by designations. (And, yes, I did date a hostess who worked in Ginza, which is why I know this, thanks for asking.)

Hostesses at medium to higher level clubs are expected to date clients and then bring them into the club. Sex is not in infrequent occurrence, which is another difference with geisha who would not give out so easily. (Or so I’ve heard, I’ve never even seen a geisha, let along date one.)

Prices in Ginza range from $700 to a couple of thousand dollars per person at this level.

In the middle bracket, and I’ve been taken to these places a fair number of times. The women tend to be more varied in age, often not a cute or not an entertaining. It’s sort of a minor league compared to The Show in Ginza.

The system works the same, although less refined, sometimes semi-sexual (holding hand and light touching is not as quickly refused) and the women will sometimes push more for sales where Ginza hostesses are more subtle about it.

Middle level clubs are several hundred dollars per person. Usually expenses to companies, although some guys will pay for this on their own.

In the bottom levels, you often get college level girls who find that this pays more than pimping fries and less work than the “Prostitution Lite” (blow jobs only) joints. More aggressive about getting money and their entertainment abilities seem limited to giggling.

I’ve got some friends who like going to these establishment, but I never saw the attraction.

Prices go down to $80 per person, and usually customers are paying themselves. You do not take clients to these places.

Then there are the Filipino clubs where the hostess are from said country. Often very sexual (taking off underwear) but no sex on the premises.

I’ve been dragged to a couple but never paid, so I’m only going to guess in the $100 range.

Siam Sam

I’ve wondered that myself. One of the guys I know with a mia noi is a teacher at a small school upcountry and I know he doesn’t make that much money.
OTOH, I know a doctor up North that has one. He bought her a house and a car to start with so I can certainly see why she likes it. My wife and I used to bump into them occasionally (he was my doctor for a while) and I mixed the wives up and identified the wrong one as the Mia Noi. Ouch, very embarrassing but just one of my many many social blunders. :o Never mind, they’re mostly funny in retrospect.

Regards

Testy

If I recall correctly it is (was?) not unusual for small Inuit communities in Greenland to invite explorers to sleep with the women of the community. Apparently the Danish explorers Knud Rasmussen and Peter Freuchen have numerous descendants in Greenland today.

An aside:
Anaamika & Testy, if You want to know a bit more on the dancing girls of Mumbai, I can strongly recommend the book Maximum City - Bombay lost and found by Suketu Metha. It’s a Naipaul-esque portrait of Bombay, and it has a very interesting chapter about the “strip clubs” of the city.

I will do that, thank you!