# Is it reasonable for an employee to expect a living wage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348 "2011-08-11T16:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/41 "2011-08-11T20:18:19Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > All the talk about what an employer is willing to pay versus what an employee is willing (often forced) to take, is an explanation of _why_ an employer can pay lower than what is required. It is not an explanation of why it’s _right_ for him to do so. Is your solution then to impose your own rules about payments on their relationship? If consenting adults want to do something together, and it’s not harming me, why should I get to tell them they can’t? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/42 "2011-08-11T20:20:00Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I’ve got an opening, but it requires several years of post-graduate education in a very specialized area. It does nothing to help the laid off carpenter to find work. [/QUOTE] I never said it did. We have 4 positions that have gone unfilled in the last year an a half, but they are all for specialized IT personnel (and they are also asking too little, which gets back to my point about having to adjust what one is willing to pay if no one is willing to take the job at the offered rate). A lot of carpenters are out of work right now due to the downturn in the housing and construction and related fields. Those people might not be able to fill IT positions, and might not be willing to take box boy positions at WalMart or something comparable…but that doesn’t mean those jobs don’t exist. > [@](#): > > Please give a cite that the total number of unfilled jobs in the US today is anywhere close to the number of officially unemployed plus those who have dropped out of the search and are no longer counted. And don’t bother to link to managers complaining about the shortage of people meeting some very specific requirements and able to start right this second, trained by another company, since these managers don’t want to train anyone. You are adding on a lot of conditions here that go beyond what I was talking about there. Why not bother with very vertically oriented work, or work that pays very little? I said right there in what you quoted that there is often a disconnect between work people are trained in and what jobs are available…and that this disconnect can broaden when you look at what jobs are available in some specific geographical area, or the price point and individual is willing to sell their labor at (for instance, your carpenter might not be willing to take a job at Walmart paying minimum wage, even if there are plenty of such jobs available). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/43 "2011-08-11T20:44:50Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Yet employees are regularly expected to work below costs. It’s expected. > [@msmith537](#): > > So why doesn’t everyone earn minimum wage? > [@davidm](#): > > It ends up being a race to the bottom for the worker while the businesses prosper.. > [@msmith537](#): > > So why doesn’t everyone earn minimum wage? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/44 "2011-08-11T21:49:37Z")
I’m a dang old bleeding heart liberal, but I can’t get behind this living wage stuff. Should employers be discouraged from paying exploitatively low wages? Yeah, but employees also should sack up and pull themselves out of that situation, which I realize is difficult, but so is life. I do advocate for there being some assistance for those wanting to better themselves but lacking the means to do so; emphasis on the “wanting to better themselves” part. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/45 "2011-08-11T21:54:36Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I know that a lot of people will say that an employee should only receive what their job is actually worth. But what is it worth? > > It can be argued that a job that isn’t worth the resources necessary to do it isn’t worth doing. That strikes me as almost a tautology. > > So is any job that is worth less than a living wage worth doing? > > Aren’t the resources needed by an employee to make himself available for that job (i.e. those things needed for him to stay alive, healthy, alert, and able to get to work and perform properly) ultimately resources that are necessary for the job in question to get done? > > If an employer is not paying for all the resources necessary to do the job, isn’t he shifting some of those costs to his employees and therefore, in a way, parasitising them? > > If I hire a horse to pull my wares to the market, I understand that the man who owns the horse has to pass his costs for maintaining the health and strength of that horse onto his customers and that that will be reflected in what I pay him. > > Should we treat employees differently from horses? We really don’t ‘need’ much to survive. Basic food, a tent, very basic health care (mostly public health) and most people will survive. Everything beyond that is arguably a want. Wages are also determined by what employers think they can pay. If engineers in the US make 50k a year, none will work for 5k. But an engineer in China will work for 10k a year since the alternative is to work on a farm for far less. It is reasonable to expect a living wage. Virtually all developed nations (and many middle income nations) have minimum wages as well as guarantees of other standards of living (health care, education, security, etc) that people get irrelevant of how much money they earn. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/46 "2011-08-11T22:04:56Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > I’m a dang old bleeding heart liberal, but I can’t get behind this living wage stuff. Should employers be discouraged from paying exploitatively low wages? Yeah, but employees also should sack up and pull themselves out of that situation, which I realize is difficult, but so is life. I do advocate for there being some assistance for those wanting to better themselves but lacking the means to do so; emphasis on the “wanting to better themselves” part. There aren’t as many good jobs anymore. Benefits are decreasing, and in the latest recession the trend has continued, high paying jobs are gone and low paying jobs are coming. [http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/higher-paying-jobs-lost-but-lower-paying-jobs-gained/](http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/higher-paying-jobs-lost-but-lower-paying-jobs-gained/) According to NELP: Lower-wage industries (those paying $9.03 -$12.91 per hour) accounted for just 23 percent of job losses, but fully 49 percent of recent growth. Midwage industries ($12.92 -$19.04 per hour) accounted for 36 percent of job losses, and 37 percent of recent growth. Higher-wage industries ($19.05 -$31.40 per hour) accounted for 40 percent of job loss, but only 14 percent of recent growth. The problem with ‘pulling yourself up by your bootstraps’ is that there is not always a better place to climb to. Not everyone can earn a million dollars a year. As a society we accept that and don’t constantly ream people who earn less than that. But we are also a society where a lot of people who work at jobs will not be able to find open positions that pay a living wage. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/47 "2011-08-11T22:16:39Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > It can be argued that a job that isn’t worth the resources necessary to do it isn’t worth doing. That strikes me as almost a tautology. > > So is any job that is worth less than a living wage worth doing? You seem to be confusing “profitable” with “worthwhile”. There’s any number of jobs that aren’t profitable but are very important; paying people to do those jobs is part of the government’s function. > [@Oakminster](#): > > You’re right, it’s not a level playing field at that level. However, it is a level playing field in that everyone has the opportunity to become an employer, rather than an employee. Nonsense. You need excess money to hire other people. > [@Oakminster](#): > > We live in a competitive world. Some will win. Some will lose. Some are born to sing the blues. > > When the bell rings, you come out with your hands up and defend yourself at all times. Maybe you beat the other guy, and move up in the world. Maybe you get knocked flat on your ass. If so, you get back up and fight some more. Or you lie down and get counted out. Oh, please. In reality to use your metaphor, employees are shoved into the ring and are expected to take a beating without fighting back. All the ruthlessness is supposed to be on the side of the _employer_. If employees typically acted like employers no one would dare employ them, they’d be too dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![AndyLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AndyLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyLee)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/48 "2011-08-11T22:50:17Z")
Just go to any resort area and look. Jackson Hole Wyoming, Key West, Florida, there full of rich people and cesspools of poverty because the workers can’t afford to live there anymore. Places like NYC can exist because poor people can always commute in. When I visited Key West, I was astonished by the raw poverty of people working for minimum wage and having to live like a 3rd world country. On a similar note, I’m going to be laid off soon, so I am looking and one thing I noticed was how employers get around paying a living wage. I answer a job for full time and the guy says “We define 24 hours a week as full time.” I’m sorry but 24 hours a week in no world is ever full time work. I remember the episode from Malcom in the Middle where the mother tells Malcom employers will pay you less than your worth but just enough to keep you from quitting. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/49 "2011-08-11T23:03:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Your labor is ‘worth’ exactly what some company is willing to pay you for itr…the price point for a given job comes from what a company or individual is willing to pay So if all the corporations decide to treat everyone like slaves who have to work 20 hours a day and eat gruel, then that’s OK I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/50 "2011-08-11T23:31:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. You need excess money to hire other people. And everyone has the opportunity to earn/save money to start a business if they’re willing to make the sacrifices requires to do so. > [@](#): > > Oh, please. In reality to use your metaphor, employees are shoved into the ring and are expected to take a beating without fighting back. All the ruthlessness is supposed to be on the side of the _employer_. If employees typically acted like employers no one would dare employ them, they’d be too dangerous. If you want to be the boss, you have to earn it. And have some good luck along the way. The world owes no one a living. You’re entitled to whatever you can lawfully earn with the skills you have and the new skills you are able to lawfully acquire. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/51 "2011-08-11T23:34:44Z")
[QUOTE=ratatoskK] So if all the corporations decide to treat everyone like slaves who have to work 20 hours a day and eat gruel, then that’s OK I guess. [/QUOTE] Conversely, they could just sell straw. It’s apparently on sale… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/52 "2011-08-11T23:36:44Z")
This is why we need more unions. Individual employees don’t have the bargaining power against businesses. If businesses could get away with it, almost all of us would be serfs or slaves. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/53 "2011-08-11T23:38:04Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Nonsense. You need excess money to hire other people. [/QUOTE] I don’t know where you got that idea, but it’s not necessarily true. You can get a loan (in the US anyway) from the SBB if you have a decent business plan. My sister and brother in law, who don’t have two dimes to rub between their fingers, are currently in the process of getting just such a loan to start a business. They definitely do not have anything like ‘excess money’, and in fact owe a considerable amount for student loans and other things…and they have a VERY good chance of getting a substantial loan from the SBB to kick start their new business. -XT ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/54 "2011-08-12T01:49:49Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Yet employees are regularly expected to work below costs. It’s expected. Yet, if an employee is forced (and yes, they are often forced regardless of protestations to the contrary) to work at below cost, he can’t go out of business (unless he’s willing to live under a bridge or simply die). All he can do is go deeper and deeper into debt, or not pay his bills at all (bringing us back to the bridge or death). You are expected to live within your means. However much you earn, there is probably someone out there who gets by on half that. > [@ratatoskK](#): > > So if all the corporations decide to treat everyone like slaves who have to work 20 hours a day and eat gruel, then that’s OK I guess. What? Like all of the thousands of corporations decide together? I guess that will work until one of them decides they want to pay a little extra for the good employees. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/55 "2011-08-12T02:05:25Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > And everyone has the opportunity to earn/save money to start a business if they’re willing to make the sacrifices requires to do so. No they don’t. People need to eat, they have all sorts of expenses they can’t ignore. > [@Oakminster](#): > > If you want to be the boss, you have to earn it. Oh, please. Since when did being a boss have much to do with “earning it”? We don’t live in some meritocracy. > [@Oakminster](#): > > The world owes no one a living. An attitude that goes wholly one way; the little people are told they are owed nothing, while being told they must give and give to their self appointed superiors. > [@msmith537](#): > > What? Like all of the thousands of corporations decide together? I guess that will work until one of them decides they want to pay a little extra for the good employees. And gets crushed by the cooperating corporations. Barring the government forcing them not to, corporations can and will cooperate, and gang up of those who don’t go along. That after all is why laws against price fixing and such were passed. Corporations are not run by ideological free marketeers who will refrain from cooperation out of some fanatic, selfless dedication to the free market; if not competing profits them more, then they’ll cooperate. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/56 "2011-08-12T03:03:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No they don’t. People need to eat, they have all sorts of expenses they can’t ignore. Yes, they do have the opportunity. Not all will make it. > [@](#): > > Oh, please. Since when did being a boss have much to do with “earning it”? We don’t live in some meritocracy. Since approximately the dawn of time. The strongest caveman banged the hottest cavewoman, and ate the best cavefood. The best athletes make the starting lineup. The best students get the best grades. The best employees get the best promotions. That’s the way the world works. > [@](#): > > An attitude that goes wholly one way; the little people are told they are owed nothing, while being told they must give and give to their self appointed superiors. I owe you nothing. If it’s me and you, and food enough for one, whichever one of us is the baddest will eat it. Again, that’s the way the world works. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/57 "2011-08-12T03:34:12Z")
It’s reasonable to expect a living wage if one’s employer doesn’t want employees to bolt, presuming the job is generally a paying one. There’s a law of diminishing returns at work here. Engineers (ahem) can expect a living wage. Line cooks, less so. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/58 "2011-08-12T03:38:53Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I owe you nothing. If it’s **me** and you, and **food enough for one** , whichever one of us is the baddest will eat it. Again, that’s the way the world works. Food enough for two. :eek: Emphasis mine. Tell me again how the world works, **Oakminister**? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/59 "2011-08-12T06:17:40Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Since approximately the dawn of time. The strongest caveman banged the hottest cavewoman, and ate the best cavefood. The best athletes make the starting lineup. The best students get the best grades. The best employees get the best promotions. That’s the way the world works. > I owe you nothing. If it’s me and you, and food enough for one, whichever one of us is the baddest will eat it. Again, that’s the way the world works. Nonsense. The war of all against all is incompatible with civilization. What you are describing is psychopathic behavior, not the way modern civilized societies run. What you are describing is some hypothetical society where the UK riots are not a short term aberration, but normal behavior; rob, loot, burn; the strong take what they want and to hell with anyone else. Good luck maintaining a civilization like that. Your “the strong take what they want” vision is parasitic; it is dependent on most people not agreeing with you. Because if they did, they’d stab you from behind (metaphorically or otherwise) or just gang up on you and take what you have. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348/60 "2011-08-12T06:21:37Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Yes, they do have the opportunity. Not all will make it. Right. The alternative to trying to get a bit more money is to take out loans to start a business which typically has a \>\> 50% chance of failing - in which case you are in far worse shape. Great plan. > [@](#): > > Since approximately the dawn of time. The strongest caveman banged the hottest cavewoman, and ate the best cavefood. The best athletes make the starting lineup. The best students get the best grades. The best employees get the best promotions. That’s the way the world works. I love how libertarians always think of themselves as the toughest trog in the cave. > [@](#): > > I owe you nothing. If it’s me and you, and food enough for one, whichever one of us is the baddest will eat it. Again, that’s the way the world works. Read your Hobbes. We have civilization for a reason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-reasonable-for-an-employee-to-expect-a-living-wage/592348.md?page=4)