# Is It Rock and Roll...or Not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 24, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766 "2017-10-24T22:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![golffan1963](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@golffan1963](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/golffan1963)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/1 "2017-10-24T22:40:04Z")
Okay…here is an adjunct to my thread on whether the “Rock Era” is over, and it is inspired by one of the replies…I think from RTfirefly. Here’s the question…awhile back, listening to the a Classic Rock station in my hometown, the song “Jessie’s Girl” by Rick Springfield was played. After the tune, the DJ describes it as a “pop” tune, which I found interesting, since it was being played on a “Classic Rock” station. As such, I personally think many rock and roll based songs have been mis-classified as pop. Per the example above, “Jessie’s Girl” in my book is a rock and roll song. Whether it’s a good rock and roll song is up to the individual…(my friends is high school at the time called it “pop and roll”)…but it if you ask me it’s still rock and roll–to paraphrase Billy Joel. So…does a rock and roll song that does well commercially disqualify it from being rock and roll? I can think of countless examples…and I’ve known people that will disqualify those songs that did well on the charts, referring to those songs as only “pop” music. Conversely, The Beatles own numerous pop chart records, and yet their commercial success hasn’t diminished their reputation. Is “Love Me Do” a rock song? What about Lennon’s “Watching The Wheels”? How about “Angie” by the Rolling Stones? Pop? Rock? Or both? It’s a question that has fascinated me for years…and I ask the board to weigh in, with apologies for the lengthy OP. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/2 "2017-10-30T18:49:08Z")
In general, “rock” refers to a genre and encompasses the overall aural quality as well as the attitude and to some degree the instrumentation. In general “pop” refers to the song structure and the broad appeal due to relatable subject matter. Aural quality and attitude are significant but less so in determining genre. Note that pop is a genre, but the aural quality of pop music has changed dramatically over the past 100 years, mostly as a result of emerging technologies and their affordability to the masses. And for several decades, the overlap of rock music and pop music was pretty persistent. IMO it is more productive in helping define the terms to narrow the gap rather than try to wedge it wider. So let’s look at a song that was popular but is not a pop song: _Inna-Gadda-Da-Vida_ by Iron Butterfly. Played on the radio when it was new, most everyone has heard of it and prolly heard it at least once in their life, aye? It’s a rock song, clearly: guitar, bass, drums, keyboards, vocals are the 5 most common instruments in rock music and the song has strong classical and blues influences. It is also, despite everyone knowing it, not a pop song. It is more than four times as long as the standard pop song duration of 3:30, features a wildly different structure than verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus and the lyrics are inscrutable creepy wailing about love for someone or something. Now the Archies _Sugar Sugar_ is clearly a pop song. Short, repetitive, uses a food metaphor in place of love or lust, a clear verse-chorus structure, and a fairly flat aural quality that doesn’t overly annoy or excite in any way. The songs you ask about fall somewhere in the middle of rock and pop; parts of them overlap the other in different places and ways. The first one you asked about, _Jessie’s Girl_, is IMO both a rock song and a pop song. The instrumentation and presentation are clearly rock, but the song structure, the lack of any real extreme dynamic (either exciting or annoying), the lyrical subject matter and the brevity of the song clearly also fit under the pop banner. _Feliz Navidad_ by Jose Feliciano is a pop song and a folk/flamenco song, but it isn’t a rock song. Cannibal Corpse’s _Fucked With A Knife_ is a rock song but clearly not a pop song. Beyoncè’s _Single Ladies_ is a pop song, but not a rock song. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/3 "2017-10-30T19:32:24Z")
As far as _Jessie’s Girl_ is concerned, if you’ve ever seen Rick perform the song live, it’s definitely Rock ‘n’ Roll. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/4 "2017-10-30T19:36:22Z")
Any definition of “rock’n’roll” which doesn’t include “Jessie’s Girl” is completely wrongly-grounded. “Rock’n’roll” started out in that kind of popular music. I agree that “Jessie’s Girl” is also “pop,” but it’s smack in the middle of what “rock’n’roll” is, and even what “rock” is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/5 "2017-10-30T19:47:09Z")
I would say that rock is a subset of pop. There are many sorts of music which are pop, and the only reason you’d refer to a song as a “pop song” is that you don’t know of any of those more specific subcategories which fit it. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/6 "2017-10-30T20:06:46Z")
Billy Joel’s It’s Still Rock n’ Roll to Me is NOT rock and roll. I suppose it’s Pop, but it’s not rock to a hilarious degree. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/7 "2017-10-30T20:09:19Z")
The pop spectrum is orthogonal to the rock spectrum. There is pop rock, and there is non-pop rock, and there is also pop jazz, pop EDM, pop R&B, etc. “Jessie’s Girl” is definitely pop rock. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/8 "2017-10-30T20:32:00Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Billy Joel’s It’s Still Rock n’ Roll to Me is NOT rock and roll. I suppose it’s Pop, but it’s not rock to a hilarious degree. It’s still rock and roll to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/9 "2017-10-30T20:36:45Z")
But it is neither hot funk nor cool punk. There is however one other category that would still count as rock n roll. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/10 "2017-10-30T20:44:45Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > But it is neither hot funk nor cool punk. There is however one other category that would still count as rock n roll. Old junk? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BobBitchin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@BobBitchin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobBitchin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/11 "2017-10-30T20:52:53Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The pop spectrum is orthogonal to the rock spectrum. There is pop rock, and there is non-pop rock, and there is also pop jazz, pop EDM, pop R&B, etc. “Jessie’s Girl” is definitely pop rock. I think this is we’ll put, also to be restated as “All thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs”:D. (small nod to TBBT)🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/12 "2017-10-30T21:02:45Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The pop spectrum is orthogonal to the rock spectrum. There is pop rock, and there is non-pop rock, and there is also pop jazz, pop EDM, pop R&B, etc. “Jessie’s Girl” is definitely pop rock. This. There’s even pop classical. Or, more precisely, almost this. Starting in the 90s and later there is alterna-pop and indie pop which takes the conventions of 80s-and later pop and approaches it with a less commercial bent. So I guess that pop is both a genre and a genre modifier. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/13 "2017-10-30T21:08:36Z")
How about Steely Dan? Despite its being played on classic rock (and AOR, back in the day when SD was new and rock was not yet classic) it’s really jazz. And Jessie’s Girl is on the rock side of the pop/rock divider, but close to it. But Rick is on the pop side of the line. I mean, he’s an ACTOR! They don’t rock. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/14 "2017-10-30T21:21:26Z")
I agree with those who say that the categories overlap, and that “Jessie’s Girl” belongs in both. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/15 "2017-10-30T21:30:28Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > But Rick is on the pop side of the line. I mean, he’s an ACTOR! They don’t rock. 🙂 Oh, I don’t know about that. Here he is channeling his inner Pete Townshend (or Sammy Hagar) : [Rick Springfield “I’ve Done Everything For You”](https://youtu.be/4ryAdaqYkFA) ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/16 "2017-10-30T22:15:06Z")
Hard Rock? ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/17 "2017-10-30T22:16:21Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > How about Steely Dan? Despite its being played on classic rock (and AOR, back in the day when SD was new and rock was not yet classic) it’s really jazz. Steely Dan is not jazz. They are jazz-influenced, and they do a passable cover of “East St Louis Toodle-Oo”, but they are not jazz. Jazz-influenced pop, maybe. I love 'em regardless. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/18 "2017-10-30T23:43:52Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Steely Dan is not jazz. They are jazz-influenced, and they do a passable cover of “East St Louis Toodle-Oo”, but they are not jazz. Jazz-influenced pop, maybe. > > I love 'em regardless. They have been described as j[azz-rock or jazz fusion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_fusion#Jazz-rock). ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/19 "2017-10-31T00:23:56Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > They have been described as j[azz-rock or jazz fusion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_fusion#Jazz-rock). Perhaps very loosely. Weather Report is much closer to my idea of fusion than Steely Dan. Then again, I wouldn’t call Sinatra jazz, either, though he was clearly jazz-influenced. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766/20 "2017-10-31T01:36:43Z")
Rock and roll is many different things to many different people. This is why the RnR Hall of Fame has acts other than traditional rock music. Generally, RnR is music kids like, and parents don’t. OP, you’re really asking what genre certain songs and/or artists belong in. Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-rock-and-roll-or-not/799766.md?page=2)