# Is it safer to be loved or feared? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221 "2009-05-12T21:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/1 "2009-05-12T21:38:39Z")
I was glossing over _The Prince_ by Machiavelli when on of his famous quotes caught my eye; > [@](#): > > Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is **much safer to be feared than loved** , when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. However, he also states that; > [@](#): > > **The best fortress which a prince can possess is the affection of his people** ; for even if he has fortresses, and is hated by his people, the fortresses will not save him. Initially this baffled me. If you have to chose to be feared or loved, it is much safer to be feared, and yet in order to be best protected you require the affection of the people? At first these statements appeared mutually exclusive. However, Machiavelli points out that there is a gulf of difference between being feared and hated; > [@](#): > > Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated. Which begs the question, is this possible? How often has this been seen throughout history? Machiavelli uses the example of Hannibal as one who is feared but not hated; which seems in his eyes to be the safest state in which a Prince can conduct himself; > [@](#): > > Returning to the question of being feared or loved…he must endeavour only to avoid hatred, as is noted. So, my question is really twofold; the original question of whether it is safer to be feared or loved, and a secondry question - is it possible to be feared without being hated? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/2 "2009-05-12T21:46:35Z")
It’s possible to be feared without being hated…when I was a kid, I was afraid of my parents, in that I knew they could and would punish me if I did something I shouldn’t, but I don’t think I ever hated my parents. Likewise, I’m afraid of policemen, but I don’t hate them. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/3 "2009-05-12T21:58:20Z")
It’s been a while since I’ve read _The Prince_ but from what I can recall Machiavelli was speaking of a specific type of fear that is more akin to respect than it is to quaking in your boots terror. Your subjects should be afraid to cross you but provided they don’t do so then they’ll get along with you just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/4 "2009-05-12T22:01:48Z")
Interesting, I hadn’t considered the case of parents. In that case it seems to outright prove Machiavelli wrong; it is possible to be both feared and loved simultaneously. However, outside of the bonds of family, I doubt this is often the case, or how ol’ Nic meant the phrase. The case of police is an interesting one too, and probably relates more to what Machiavelli was thinking; is it safest for those in authority, who are not family, to have the fear of the populace rather than affection? Edit: @ **Odesio** , thanks for your response, I didn’t quite read it that way, which may well be the intention. I was reading to mean subjects being so afraid of you that they dare not act out of hatred, something we’ve seen many times over in the long-lived dictators of the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/5 "2009-05-12T22:02:19Z")
I fear the legal system, but I do not hate the legal system. I fear lions, but I do not hate them. I think the trick is to be benevolent unless you’re provoked; to be clear and consistent about what will provoke you, and to not be provoked by things that the populace considers their right. Oh, and when you _are_ provoked, to retaliate with a fearful punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/6 "2009-05-12T22:16:57Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Interesting, I hadn’t considered the case of parents. In that case it seems to outright prove Machiavelli wrong; it is possible to be both feared and loved simultaneously. Machiavelli didn’t say you couldn’t have both he just said that it’s better to be feared than loved if you had to pick one or the other. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/7 "2009-05-12T22:32:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I fear lions, but I do not hate them. On reflection, I want to retract this. I don’t hate lions because they’re otherwise prevented from doing things that I feel infringe on my rights. If I was forced to deal with them in the wild for any length of time, I’d probably hate them. Or feed them. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/8 "2009-05-12T22:38:51Z")
Not quite what Machiavelli was talking about, but look at a typical physically and emotionally abusive relationship between a married or dating man and woman – she may love him, but above all she fears setting him off or, eventually, leaving him, while his (warped) ‘love’ for her can provoke his ire, through jealousy, and may very well end up with her dead (between 2003 and 2005, [44 percent](http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2008/09/44_percent_of_m.php) of female murder victims in New York were killed by a partner – one who, presumably, loved her at some point if not still). True, the ‘crime of passion’ defense carries less and less weight and he could end up in jail – but, technically, he’s come out on top. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/9 "2009-05-13T18:13:48Z")
The record of history, though, does seem clear. Rulers whom the people are afraid to cross seem to do much better than those whose people are united to them by any affection. As an example, look the the French monarchy. It thrived, not on love, but on respect. Peoples’ passions go back and forth Even though Louis the 14th and Marie Antoinette were kind, generous, and effective monarchs, they were neither feared nor respected. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/10 "2009-05-13T18:16:34Z")
Why not both? I want people to be afraid of how much they love me. (Apologies to the writers of “The Office”.) ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/11 "2009-05-13T19:10:17Z")
IIRC, Mencius had a lot to say on the topic. The only relevant (?) quite I can find at the moment (admittedly, finding a quote on the Internet to paraphrase Mencius is something of a sin) is: If the prince of a State love benevolence, he will have no opponent in all the empire. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/12 "2009-05-13T20:16:55Z")
I think there’s two important considerations that you need to take into account. 1. Whether you’re considering the possibility of being overthrown by a mass uprising, or being overthrown by a conspiracy of a few key insiders (I think the latter has been more common over the course of history). 2. It’s difficult if not impossible to be loved by everyone. It’s much easier to be feared by everyone. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/13 "2009-05-13T20:50:11Z")
Is it safer to be hated by a whole lot of people than by just a few? Hmm, thinkthinkthink … ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/14 "2009-05-13T21:55:32Z")
Being feared appears safer, but is imprisoning and isolating, either self imposed or imposed on you by those who fear you. It is a miserable existence. Being loved may be safer in reality as it will lead to a more forfulling life and in that a person would actually live instead of just exist. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/15 "2009-05-13T22:16:34Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Why not both? I want people to be afraid of how much they love me. > > (Apologies to the writers of “The Office”.) Beat me to it 🙂 [http://teenormous.com/go?id=Stylin-Online-Office-Michael-Sweatshirt-41229](http://teenormous.com/go?id=Stylin-Online-Office-Michael-Sweatshirt-41229) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/16 "2009-05-13T22:20:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is it safer to be hated by a whole lot of people than by just a few? Hmm, thinkthinkthink … He said you didn’t want to be hated. Just feared. There’s a difference. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Being feared appears safer, but is imprisoning and isolating, either self imposed or imposed on you by those who fear you. It is a miserable existence. > > Being loved may be safer in reality as it will lead to a more forfulling life and in that a person would actually live instead of just exist. Or get the best of both worlds: loved by a few, feared by the rest. Happiness _and_ safety. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/17 "2009-05-13T23:19:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > He said you didn’t want to be hated. Just feared. There’s a difference. Not one you can count on. The things you do to make people fear you usually make them hate you too. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/18 "2009-05-14T00:01:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not one you can count on. The things you do to make people fear you usually make them hate you too. I’d say it depends on what you do. If you are fearful only because you are strict in your enforcement of the law, but are also _just_ in your enforcement of the law (and the law itself is not overly oppressive) I believe you can engender the sort of fear being discussed without evoking hatred. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/19 "2009-05-14T01:39:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not one you can count on. The things you do to make people fear you usually make them hate you too. Not necessarily. It can be the things the populace doesn’t understand that came make them fear you. There are plenty of people that fear Obama, not because they hate him, but because they do not understand what he is saying, or doing. Fearful of the unknown… huge influence on us humans. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/20 "2009-05-14T05:55:23Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Which begs the question, is this possible? How often has this been seen throughout history? Machiavelli uses the example of Hannibal as one who is feared but not hated; It’s been ages since I’ve read _The Prince_ - or well probably just skimmed it in high school - but it struck me as odd to use Hannibal as an example of fear vs. love. Looking at wiki, it seems even stranger than he’d compare him to Scipio Africanus. Scipio did of course defeat Hannibal. Hannibal was beyond any doubt a military genius of the highest order as Cannae, Lake Trasimene, and Trebia more than attest to. Had any nation but Rome been dealt such massive defeats and losses in such short order it would have collapsed. After these victories, however, Hannibal was deep in Roman territory without a siege train and he’d apparently been relying on defections against Rome for supplies and the creation of a siege train. Despite Rome’s clear peril at this point, no cities in Italy rallied to Hannibal; rather the years of benevolent rule (as far as things went and to them at least) by Rome paid dividends. Even when the defeat of Rome seemed possible if not probable, ‘love’ of Rome won out over fear of Hannibal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221.md?page=2)