# Is it safer to be loved or feared? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221 "2009-05-12T21:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/21 "2009-05-14T13:31:32Z")
A LOT of people loved Hitler and Stalin. And I once read that a group of North Korean gymnasts touring South Korea leaped out of their bus in the rain to prevent a picture of Kim Jong il from being “desecrated” (this incident was said to have led many people in SK to think “hey, maybe these people are kind of different than us …”). Of course, many of these people don’t actually fear these leaders, since they think the leaders are so great and kind and loving and caring that they would only sock it to the Real Bad People, i.e. Enemies of the People and the like. Nonetheless, these people can simultaneously love their leaders and respect their ability and predilection for crushing their enemies. So you get to be loved by the vast majority and feared by the few who are not so much in love. But it can be hard to pull off. Didn’t work out so good for Hitler, and though Stalin had a long run, he is thought to have been ultimately poisoned by some who feared him. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/22 "2009-05-14T16:06:25Z")
Actually, F-P, it’s very dubious that North Korean fanatacism is much more than total isolation, combined with a very powerful fear. Stalin inspired terror much mroe than any kind of love, but the terror inspired a show of love. Likewise, anyone not showing utter devotion to Kim Jong Il in public can be purged and sent to prison, although _hopefully_ not killed outright. People can and do fall over themselves to show devotion, and it is expected in public, but many sources suggest the younger generations are fed up with it, aware that their lives suck even in the best of times, but have no way of communicating with the outside. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/23 "2009-05-14T16:58:49Z")
I think we need to further refine the scope of discussion. Machiavelli was talking about a head of state, and generally speaking, a dictator. The person in that role really can’t be compared to a parent, or a cop, or any other powerful figure like just “some rich guy”. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/24 "2009-05-14T17:13:29Z")
Military history is replete with leaders who have manage to be feared, but not hated. Wellington and “Stonewall” Jackson are two good examples of that. They were stern disciplinarians, who could ruthlessly sacrifice the lives their me when necessary. But were greatly respected by their men as they won battles. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/25 "2009-05-14T17:21:37Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Actually, F-P, it’s very dubious that North Korean fanatacism is much more than total isolation, combined with a very powerful fear. I agree about the first part but not the second. If these people were not so isolated they would realize what kind of evil lunatic he is and wouldn’t love him. But as it is they don’t know that and think he’s great and love him for it. I don’t have any direct knowledge of this, but it’s what I’ve read. (I tried to find the article referenced above that had the bus incident, but couldn’t.) > [@](#): > > Stalin inspired terror much mroe than any kind of love, but the terror inspired a show of love. I don’t think this is true. Even some of the people that he actually sent to the Gulag remained believers in him and his system, and believed their incarceration to be the result of schemers and the like (or in some cases, felt it was necessary for innocent people like themselves to suffer for the greater good of Communism). IMHO you are underestimating the power of propaganda in totalitarian regimes (& ideological fanaticism). I should note that [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il#Cult_of_personality) seems to support you re Kim, but I didn’t see any support for that in the footnoted sources. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/26 "2009-05-14T18:01:33Z")
I’ve seen interviews with old Russian who talked of them and their neighbors crying like babies when Stalin died. They did genuinely love him, in large part because he totally controlled all the communications media. Everything bad was the fault of others – outsiders or counter-revolutionaries. It was the insiders who feared him. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/27 "2009-05-14T18:01:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think this is true. Even some of the people that he actually sent to the Gulag remained believers in him and his system, and believed their incarceration to be the result of schemers and the like (or in some cases, felt it was necessary for innocent people like themselves to suffer for the greater good of Communism). > > IMHO you are underestimating the power of propaganda in totalitarian regimes (& ideological fanaticism). No, I don’t think I am underestimating the power of propaganda, but I disagree about how you define love. Nobody loved Stalin (apparently not even his wife and child). He was an utter tyrant in the purest sense of the word. However, many, even msot people, are willing to slavishly fall over themselves to serve tyrants, and cling to the coattails of power. It’s disgusting form of self-abnegation, and permanently renders them child-like in a way. But it is not love, and it vanishes the moment the power figure weakens. Remember that Beria, the most fanatic of Stalin’s slaves, is widely reported even by his enemies to have spat and cursed Stalin he moment the man appeared dead. And then abased himself before the dying Stalin when the man merely opened his eyes. And then went back to cursing him again when Stalin closed them again. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/28 "2009-05-14T18:12:09Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Nobody loved Stalin (apparently not even his wife and child). The “not even” is not appropriate. The love people had for Stalin was based on propaganda, and if you actually knew the guy personally that propaganda would be of limited impact. (See also Boyo Jim’s post above.) > [@](#): > > Remember that Beria, the most fanatic of Stalin’s slaves, is widely reported even by his enemies to have spat and cursed Stalin he moment the man appeared dead. It’s unclear whether Beria was the most fanatic of Stalin’s slaves and his liberalizing after he took power was a political gambit, or whether he was a relative liberal who happened to have been given the Security portfolio by Stalin. In any event, he definitely feared Stalin (& possibly thought he was about to be purged), and he’s the main suspected poisoner IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/29 "2009-05-14T18:49:10Z")
[QUOTE=Odesio] It’s been a while since I’ve read The Prince but from what I can recall Machiavelli was speaking of a specific type of fear that is more akin to respect than it is to quaking in your boots terror. Your subjects should be afraid to cross you but provided they don’t do so then they’ll get along with you just fine. [/QUOTE] I agree. I do think that when speaking of fear, Machiavelli meant a mix of respect and recognition that the Prince has the means to enforce his will. Or, in other words, that his injunction to “be feared” is to be understood as “don’t appear weak/powerless” or “don’t let anyone forget who’s the boss”. Which is, I think, a valid point even outside of a dictatorship. Consider law enforcement : police officers are often at a very real disadvantage in the course of their job - by numbers alone, a determined mob is likely to overpower the cops trying to control it. A physically strong individual can overpower a cop trying to restrain him. Yet impressed in everyone’s mind through various ways is the notion that it’s ultimately futile to even try, because even if you do get one, or two, you can’t kill or beat all of them, they’ll eventually and without fail find you and get you in the end. Even though that notion is demonstrably wrong. More broadly & succintly : “Crime doesn’t pay” is a false statement - but how often have you heard it said ? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221/30 "2009-05-16T10:45:27Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Why not both? I want people to be afraid of how much they love me. > > (Apologies to the writers of “The Office”.) Ah but wht if instead they fear your love or love your fear?🙂 My take on the O.P. is if its an “either or” choice its better to be loved because even when you’re helpless they’re going to defend you or fight your corner. Whereas if your position relies totally on their being afraid of you; the minute you start losing against outside enemies or your guard drops then they’ll be on you . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-safer-to-be-loved-or-feared/496221.md?page=1)