# Is it Secretary or Senator Clinton? Need answer fast. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 27, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054 "2015-08-27T12:51:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/1 "2015-08-27T12:51:52Z")
Hillary Clinton could make an unscheduled campaign stop at my house. You never know, and I want to make sure that I address her correctly when she arrives at my front door. She’s a former Secretary of State, a former Senator from New York, and a former First Lady of the United States. Do I address her by her last job, such as Madam Secretary, or by her next to last job, which you could argue was more prestigious and was an elected position, Madam Senator? Or can I choose either one? Or is there some other title I should use, like former First Lady. What is the rule here? I’m sure someone from her advance team would tell me, but just in case I’m caught flat footed… ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/2 "2015-08-27T13:28:07Z")
Defendant might work soon enough ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/3 "2015-08-27T13:36:36Z")
Since she is neither right now, couldn’t she just be Mrs. Clinton? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/4 "2015-08-27T13:48:06Z")
Hopefully, “inmate” Clinton, soon. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/5 "2015-08-27T13:49:38Z")
> [@Pai325](#): > > Since she is neither right now, couldn’t she just be Mrs. Clinton? Sure, and you could address her husband as Mr. Clinton, but we don’t do that, we acknowledge that they held an important position in our Government, at least until they let us know that we are on a less formal basis with them. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/6 "2015-08-27T13:54:26Z")
The combination of the OP’s question and his sig line might raise some eyebrows. My understanding, no cite, is that President is one of those rare titles in the US that is conferred for life. Former whatever-elses generally revert to Mr., Mrs., or Ms. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/7 "2015-08-27T14:01:45Z")
Secretary Clinton. In American etiquette, a former high official continues to be addressed by that former title (President used to be an exception, since it was seen as a role one stepped down to, but no longer - sorry, Miss Manners, I love you but you’re just out of date here) \*. The question is which title is highest. First Lady is not a formal title, and persons in that role are addressed as Mrs. (Bubba would probably be First Gentleman, but still addressed as Mr. President). Senators represent their states, but Secretaries represent the nation, so that means Secretary is highest, as well as most recent. - For example, after Teddy Roosevelt left office, his title of address reverted to Colonel. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/8 "2015-08-27T14:04:09Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > Defendant might work soon enough > [@ralph124c](#): > > Hopefully, “inmate” Clinton, soon. **Moderator Warnings** **davida03801** and **ralph124c** , both of you have been here long enough to know that political jabs are not permitted in GQ (particularly as an initial response). I’m issuing you both official warnings. Don’t do this again. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/9 "2015-08-27T14:30:09Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Sure, and you could address her husband as Mr. Clinton, but we don’t do that Of course we do. There’s no law requiring people to address or refer to former office holders by some fancy title, and in fact many people, quite politely and uncontroversially, stick to the standard “Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms.” honorifics. For example, here’s [_The New York Times_ referring to Hillary Clinton as “Mrs. Clinton”](http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/08/26/hillary-clinton-speaks-about-farming-and-much-more-in-iowa/). Web searches show no shortage of people directly addressing her this way, whether they’re foreign heads of government, journalists posting questions at press conferences, or fans reaching out to her on Twitter. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/10 "2015-08-27T14:40:38Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Sure, and you could address her husband as Mr. Clinton, but we don’t do that, we acknowledge that they held an important position in our Government, at least until they let us know that we are on a less formal basis with them. Actually, her husband should be addressed as “Governor Clinton” or “Mr. Clinton” as there’s only one president at a time [cite](http://www.uexpress.com/miss-manners/2003/12/2/the-ex-presidential-address). She’s “Secretary Clinton” or “Mrs. Clinton.” ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/11 "2015-08-27T14:47:03Z")
[According to this guy](http://www.formsofaddress.info/former.html), she is “The honorable Mrs. Clinton” > [@](#): > > Is a Former Secretary of (Department) still “The Honorable”? Is a former Secretary of Labor still The Honorable? > — G. G. Johnson > > Dear Ms. Johnson: > Former secretaries of Federal Departments are still addressed as The Honorable. The rule is once an Honorable always and an Honorable. They are no longer Mr./Madame Secretary or Secretary (Name) since their is another holder of this only-one-person-at-a-time office, but they are still The Honorable. > After leaving the office Secretaries formally go back to the highest honorific to which he or she wss entitled before assuming office. That doesn’t mean you don’t hear it in the media, but it’s not correct as a form of address. > – Robert Hickey > > **How to Orally Address a Former Secretary?** > First, if you were working with a former secretary, e.g., former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, would you still address her as Madame Secretary? I think now that she’s out of office she would be just Dr. Rice – the form of address she had before she took office and was on the faculty of Stanford University. Right? > Second, if I am right, how do you delicately inform an executive who strongly feels she is still “Secretary (last name)”? > — Kelly Roberts McLean > > Dear Ms. McLean: > You are right. Condoleezza Rice is officially Dr. Rice in direct address and identified as the Secretary of State from 2005-2009 or something similar. > There are some positions which come with a rank, and former office holders continue to be addressed with an honorific of their former position: senators, judges, ambassadors, and military generals, for example. > But being a Secretary is a ROLE, not a RANK. There’s only one secretary of (a department) at a time, and only the current office holder is granted the courtesies of the office. Being addressed as “Secretary” is a courtesy of the office. > While a former official might find receiving the courtesies of the office to be flattering, it is not respectful to the current, singular office holder. > As to how I would delicately inform an executive who strongly felt she is still “Secretary (Name)” … I would inform her only if she asked me for my advice. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/12 "2015-08-27T14:48:29Z")
Miss Manners is simply charmingly anachronistic on that point. The NYT works to its own style guide, not conventional usage, too. True, it’s never wrong to refer to a President, former or current, as Mr., just as it isn’t wrong to address the Queen as Ma’m. But if a title is called for, it’s President. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/13 "2015-08-27T15:03:20Z")
The NYTimes practice, as I understand it, is to refer to a person by their rank in the first mention and then use Mr., Mrs., or Ms. for all further references. That includes the President. After Obama went into office, we had to patiently explain to people that calling him Mr. Obama was not an insult because he was black. The U.S., like all nations, has a formal protocol office that determines matters of rank and title and address and seating at formal dinners and the line for the bathroom. But the rest of the world is not an employee of the N_ew York Times_ or the federal government. It has been standard for many decades to use courtesy titles for former titleholders. (Yes, Miss Manners is wrong. All ex-Presidents are Mr. President. When Clinton becomes an ex-President she will be Mrs. President, though by then hopefully we’ll smarten up and call her Ms. President.) When a person has multiple titles, they can be addressed by any. Someone from New York state might preferentially reference Clinton’s status as former New York Senator over the more recent job of Secretary of State. Usually, though, you would go by the more recent or the higher, which normally are synonymous anyway. But Mrs. Clinton is just fine and what I would use. That is always acceptable outside formal protocol. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/14 "2015-08-27T15:07:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > When Clinton becomes an ex-President she will be Mrs. President I would think Madam President, by similarity to Madam Chairman or Madam Secretary. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/15 "2015-08-27T15:50:58Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The NYTimes practice, as I understand it, is to refer to a person by their rank in the first mention and then use Mr., Mrs., or Ms. for all further references. That includes the President. After Obama went into office, we had to patiently explain to people that calling him Mr. Obama was not an insult because he was black. > > The U.S., like all nations, has a formal protocol office that determines matters of rank and title and address and seating at formal dinners and the line for the bathroom. > > But the rest of the world is not an employee of the N_ew York Times_ or the federal government. It has been standard for many decades to use courtesy titles for former titleholders. (Yes, Miss Manners is wrong. All ex-Presidents are Mr. President. When Clinton becomes an ex-President she will be Mrs. President, though by then hopefully we’ll smarten up and call her Ms. President.) When a person has multiple titles, they can be addressed by any. Someone from New York state might preferentially reference Clinton’s status as former New York Senator over the more recent job of Secretary of State. Usually, though, you would go by the more recent or the higher, which normally are synonymous anyway. > > But Mrs. Clinton is just fine and what I would use. That is always acceptable outside formal protocol. Thanks EM. Simple and clear. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/16 "2015-08-27T16:22:20Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > When Clinton becomes an ex-President she will be Mrs. President, though by then hopefully we’ll smarten up and call her Ms. President.) Mrs. \ is never correct. It’s Madam \. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/17 "2015-08-27T17:02:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I would think Madam President, by similarity to Madam Chairman or Madam Secretary. > [@friedo](#): > > Mrs. \ is never correct. It’s Madam \. You’re both right that Madam is the protocol term for a female in active office. The question is whether it will be used for a female ex-President. It’s hard to predict how language will evolve to meet a new situation. But my hunch is that Madam will not be used. I found an answer on a page from [The Protocol School of Washington](http://www.formsofaddress.info/former.html#FO003), which is a real thing. > [@](#): > > Is a Former President Addressed as President (name)? > I have been directing people to refer to former presidents as President (last name). Is that correct? > — Anna McDonald, Stafford, Virginia > > Dear Ms. McDonald: > This issue is complicated since we hear former Presidents referred to as President Clinton and President Bush on the media all the time; Here’s what is the correct formula as it appears in my book (assuming they didn’t have an honorific other than Mr./Ms. to go back to … as General Dwight D. Eisenhower did.): > > ``` > Former President of the United States > Envelope, official: > > ``` > > [INDENT] The Honorable > (Full name) > (Address) > Letter salutation: Dear Mr./Ms. (surname): > Conversation: Mr./Ms. (surname)[/INDENT] If even formal protocol prefers Ms. then it’s hard to believe that more casual usage will stick with Madam. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/18 "2015-08-27T17:05:55Z")
You use the higher rank. Secretary of State \> Senator. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/19 "2015-08-27T17:06:38Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The combination of the OP’s question and his sig line might raise some eyebrows. > > My understanding, no cite, is that President is one of those rare titles in the US that is conferred for life. Former whatever-elses generally revert to Mr., Mrs., or Ms. Judges retain the title even after retirement or leaving the bench for other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/20 "2015-08-27T17:35:12Z")
It seems about time to ask the OP why he “needs answer fast”. 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054.md?page=2)