# Is it Secretary or Senator Clinton? Need answer fast. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 27, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054 "2015-08-27T12:51:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/21 "2015-08-27T20:16:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You use the higher rank. Secretary of State \> Senator. While the “higher rank” rule seems apt, I am surprised that a cabinet Secretary position would rate higher than Senator. Note that the “higher rank” rule leads to ludicrous things. E.g., Claude Pepper being called “Senator” after he lost re-election and later became a member of the US House. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/22 "2015-08-27T21:18:24Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > While the “higher rank” rule seems apt, I am surprised that a cabinet Secretary position would rate higher than Senator. > > Note that the “higher rank” rule leads to ludicrous things. E.g., Claude Pepper being called “Senator” after he lost re-election and later became a member of the US House. Well for one there’s only 1 Secretary of State at a time and there are 100 active senators… plus the feds trump the states every time. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/23 "2015-08-27T21:21:51Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Well for one there’s only 1 Secretary of State at a time and there are 100 active senators… plus the feds trump the states every time. And fourth in line for the presidency if something happens to the VP, Speaker of the House, and President Pro Tem of the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/24 "2015-08-27T21:36:50Z")
[United States order of precedence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_order_of_precedence) Secretary of State is 10, Senators are 26. Nancy Reagan outranks them. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/25 "2015-08-27T22:31:16Z")
It might be largely a matter of how the former official’s PR flaks want to spin it. When former governor Ronald Reagan ran for president against former governor Jimmy Carter in 1980, Reagan’s campaign _always_ referred to him as “Governor Reagan” or “the Governor”. I don’t recall that Carter’s campaign ever referred to him as Governor. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/26 "2015-08-27T23:01:24Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Well for one there’s only 1 Secretary of State at a time and there are 100 active senators… plus the feds trump the states every time. United States Senate seats are federal offices, legislative branch. But Cabinet Secretaryships outrank them. ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/27 "2015-08-28T14:29:33Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > It might be largely a matter of how the former official’s PR flaks want to spin it. > > When former governor Ronald Reagan ran for president against former governor Jimmy Carter in 1980, Reagan’s campaign _always_ referred to him as “Governor Reagan” or “the Governor”. I don’t recall that Carter’s campaign ever referred to him as Governor. Might could be that Carter was the current President? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/28 "2015-08-28T15:39:18Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > It might be largely a matter of how the former official’s PR flaks want to spin it. > > When former governor Ronald Reagan ran for president against former governor Jimmy Carter in 1980, Reagan’s campaign _always_ referred to him as “Governor Reagan” or “the Governor”. I don’t recall that Carter’s campaign ever referred to him as Governor. Why on Earth would Carter’s campaign, or anyone else, have referred to him as governor? Reagan’s highest rank had been governor, while Carter’s highest _and current_ rank was president. It would have made zero sense for anyone to refer to Carter as governor. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/29 "2015-08-28T15:41:05Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > It might be largely a matter of how the former official’s PR flaks want to spin it. > > When former governor Ronald Reagan ran for president against former governor Jimmy Carter in 1980, Reagan’s campaign _always_ referred to him as “Governor Reagan” or “the Governor”. I don’t recall that Carter’s campaign ever referred to him as Governor. Why on Earth would Carter’s campaign, or anyone else, have referred to him as governor? Reagan’s highest rank had been governor, while Carter’s highest _and current_ rank was president. It would have made zero sense for anyone to refer to Carter as governor. (I doubt that anyone referred to Vice President Al Gore as “Senator Gore” when he was running in 2000, either.) ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/30 "2015-08-28T17:27:46Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Note that the “higher rank” rule leads to ludicrous things. E.g., Claude Pepper being called “Senator” after he lost re-election and later became a member of the US House. You could easily avoid this ludicrous result by modifying the “higher rank” rule: It is used only to determine which of several past offices the person is addressed with, but offices presently held trump past offices, so the bearer would be addressed with that one, even if it is inferior to a previously held office. It seems to me that this rule would have a basis in common usage. I’m pretty sure Taft, for instance, was not addressed as “Mr President” while he was Chief Justice; he would go by the customary address for a Chief Justice. That, of course, still leaves the question open whether “Secretary” is a rank higher than “Senator”, or vice versa. My take on that, but I’m happy to be corrected, is that Secretary is the higher rank. There are fewer cabinet secretaries than there are senators; a cabinet secretary has typically (exceptions might exist, but normally it’s like this) more influence on shaping government policies than a single senator; and a cabinet secretary occupies a position in the presidential line of succession. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/31 "2015-08-28T17:33:31Z")
I’d also like to add that the [order of precedence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_order_of_precedence) used e.g. for the purposes of diplomatic protocol place current vabinet secretaries above current senators. Former Secretaries of State are also listed, while former senators are not. By that logic, a past Secretary of State would certainly outrank a past senator in precedence. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/32 "2015-08-28T21:03:38Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Well for one there’s only 1 Secretary of State at a time and there are 100 active senators… plus the feds trump the states every time. But there are 15 cabinet Secretaries. All appointed and _confirmed by the Senate_. Some can have quite short terms. Most don’t last more than 4 years as opposed to 6 for a mere single term Senator. A US Senator is a Federal position, not a state one. As to Presidential succession, the pool is set up to lean heavily on members of the executive branch to succeed to the top executive position, which makes sense. Except for the part about the Speaker of the House and President of the Senate (!) _pro tem_ taking precedence. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/33 "2015-08-28T21:08:16Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I’d also like to add that the [order of precedence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_order_of_precedence) used e.g. for the purposes of diplomatic protocol place current vabinet secretaries above current senators. Former Secretaries of State are also listed, while former senators are not. By that logic, a past Secretary of State would certainly outrank a past senator in precedence. That’s the same link I gave in post #24. > [@ftg](#): > > But there are 15 cabinet Secretaries. All appointed and _confirmed by the Senate_. Some can have quite short terms. Most don’t last more than 4 years as opposed to 6 for a mere single term Senator. And yet every cabinet member ranks higher in precedence than any senator. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/34 "2015-08-28T21:12:50Z")
If she is coming to a function by you, I’m guessing her staff will let you know how she wants to be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/35 "2015-08-31T10:42:58Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Why on Earth would Carter’s campaign, or anyone else, have referred to him as governor? Reagan’s highest rank had been governor, while Carter’s highest _and current_ rank was president. It would have made zero sense for anyone to refer to Carter as governor. Because the word “him” quite obviously refers back to Reagan, not Carter? When your first interpretation sounds stupid, it’s generally a good idea to go back and see if there is another one that doesn’t. At least it’s nice to know that people do this to others and not just me. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054/36 "2015-08-31T11:21:56Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Well for one there’s only 1 Secretary of State at a time and there are 100 active senators… plus the feds trump the states every time. There’s only one White House Head Chef, so I guess he outranks all the senators as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-secretary-or-senator-clinton-need-answer-fast/729054.md?page=1)