# Is it slightly disgraceful to be an Englishman **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979 "2005-04-19T01:33:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/21 "2005-04-19T12:04:01Z")
> [@](#): > > He should have stuck to selling books in Kentish Town. Rather than, say, risking his life in the Spanish Civil War or writing a devastating [critique](http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,4120,908925,00.html) of Marxism so powerful that even children could understand it? ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/22 "2005-04-19T12:12:08Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Rather than, say, risking his life in the Spanish Civil War or writing a devastating [critique](http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,4120,908925,00.html) of Marxism so powerful that even children could understand it? Yup - the consumptive old ponce 😛 ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/23 "2005-04-19T14:20:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t forget those cranks who despise their own country for religious reasons – e.g., the British Catholics Hilaire Belloc and G.K. Chesterton. (If you don’t believe Chesterton despised Britain, read his poem _Lepanto_ – [http://www.bartleby.com/103/91.html](http://www.bartleby.com/103/91.html). “The cold Queen of England is looking in the glass . . .”) I would very much like to hear how this one line somehow reveals his hatred for his country. The reality was that he saw patriotism as a virtue and loved his country enough to be honest about what he saw as its failings. > [@GKC](#): > > “My country, right or wrong” is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying “My mother, drunk or sober.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/24 "2005-04-19T20:47:11Z")
[QUOTE=roger thornhill] QUOTE=Wooders]These days ‘socialism’ itself is a dirty word. Not in Europe, it isn’t – not even in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc. Nor in Canada nor Mexico. In fact, AFAIK, it isn’t considered a dirty word anywhere but the U.S. and parts of the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/25 "2005-04-19T21:08:17Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] > [@roger thornhill](#): > > QUOTE=Wooders]These days ‘socialism’ itself is a dirty word. > Not in Europe, it isn’t Exactly. Even the ever-more-right-wing British Labour party has remained a member of the Socialist Group in the European Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/26 "2005-04-19T21:11:21Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I would very much like to hear how this one line somehow reveals his hatred for his country. The reality was that he saw patriotism as a virtue and loved his country enough to be honest about what he saw as its failings. Well, I could be wrong. But I always had the impression that Chesterton – and even more so, Belloc – always had an uncomfortable feeling of divided loyalties, of being a committed Catholic in a Protestant country. (And the question of Ireland was still alive in their lifetimes, which complicated the picture further.) I know Belloc reproached H.G. Wells with, among other things, excessive pro-British bias when he wrote a booklet lambasting Wells’ _Outline of History_ (although his main objection to the book, which assumed biological evolution to be an established fact, was that its purpose was “to deny the Christian religion”). And I’ve read that book and could find no pro-British bias in it all except when it mentioned Irish nationalism. (And if Wells was against Irish independence I would attribute that not to British patriotism but to his avowed internationalism; he wanted a world government, like any sensible person, and nationalist secessionism goes in the opposite direction.) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/27 "2005-04-19T21:17:49Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] > [@roger thornhill](#): > > QUOTE=Wooders]These days ‘socialism’ itself is a dirty word. > > Not in Europe, it isn’t Not true! (!!!11) In this little part of Europe called my home it’s most certainly a dirty word. Call me a socialist and I’ll put you early to bed without supper. Serves you right too. :mad: :mad: :mad: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/28 "2005-04-19T21:31:33Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not true! (!!!11) In this little part of Europe called my home it’s most certainly a dirty word. 😛 Sure you can speak for everybody? In Denmark the Social Democrats are the second-largest party in the Folketing and even the Socialist People’s Party has seven seats. And the ruling Liberal Party/People’s Conservative Party coalition has encountered stubborn resistance in its efforts to reform the Danish welfare state. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics\_of\_Denmark](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Denmark) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/29 "2005-04-19T21:47:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, I could be wrong. But I always had the impression that Chesterton – and even more so, Belloc – always had an uncomfortable feeling of divided loyalties, of being a committed Catholic in a Protestant country. Oh, well yes. I can’t speak to Belloc at all, but Chesterton was very much in the position of a man whose wife and mother don’t get along; he still loved them both. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/30 "2005-04-20T01:01:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wells…wanted a world government, like any sensible person… _:: faints ::_ [Re-emerges wearing John McEnroe headband] ‘YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!’ **GMan** , ‘even the ever-more-right-wing British Labour party has remained a member of the Socialist Group in the European Parliament’ - well, assumedly because the PR boys have conducted studies and formed focus groups and the consensus is that there are more votes to be won (domestically - they don’t give a fig about Europe - yet, till they want to become Lord High Commissioner of Bruxelles or whatever) by belonging to a group with socialist in the title than to be lost be so doing. Long gone are the days when Socialist was happily used by a Labour MP as Tory was (and still generally is) used by a Conservative MP. It’s political poison, with its reminders (for older British people anyway) of the decline of Britain in the 1960s and 1970s, and especially of the tyranny exercised by the left-wing unions and their overlords. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/31 "2005-04-20T02:02:28Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > He should have stuck to selling books in Kentish Town. [nitpick] Orwell never sold books in Kentish Town. The secondhand bookshop he worked in (and which he immortalised) was the long since defunct Booklover’s Corner at 1 South End Road in southern Hampstead. At the time he was living at 50 Lawford Road, which is in Kentish Town - just off the high street - and which now boasts a blue plaque marking the fact. This is within walking distance of South End Road, but the shop was not in Kentish Town. I’m not quite sure how this factoid started, though I have seen it elsewhere. The _Spectator_ I believe. [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/32 "2005-04-20T02:12:07Z")
One word: “Marmite.” Question answered. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/33 "2005-04-20T06:10:41Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Yup - the consumptive old ponce 😛 :mad: That is an ill-natured, ill-bred, and poorly-thought-out thing to say of a man of Orwell’s exemplary virtue, imagination, and moral, intellectual and physical courage, **owl.** I can say no more without consigning this meritorious thread to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/34 "2005-04-20T06:12:32Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > One word: “Marmite.” > > Question answered. 😕 But what was the question? ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/35 "2005-04-20T06:16:04Z")
Ignore **Owl**. His football team (average age 18 and a half) has more talent and potential, and better management than in any of the previous 16 years in which he has never missed a home match. (Sad git.) Something is juts bound to go wrong, for this is Tottenham Hotspur. Owl is a bit tired and emotional as he endeavours to handle the twin emotions of exhilaration and expected dashed expectations. And, Orwell went to a _really_ famous public school - not some old dump in the sticks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/36 "2005-04-20T06:16:10Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > _:: faints ::_ > > [Re-emerges wearing John McEnroe headband] ‘YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!’ 😛 Oh, I LOVE doing that! . . . But yes. Honestly. Seriously. The European Union has clearly demonstrated for all the world what an international government might ideally be. How could any **sensible** person not want that for all the world? :dubious: Wells’ (and Orwell’s, and Bertrand Russell’s, and many others’) internationalist aspirations were right on the money. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/37 "2005-04-20T06:18:01Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Owl is a bit tired and emotional as he endeavours to handle the twin emotions of exhilaration and expected dashed expectations. Red Sox fan, is he? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/38 "2005-04-20T06:21:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wells’ (and Orwell’s, and Bertrand Russell’s, and many others’) internationalist aspirations were right on the money. But was Orwell such an internationalist? Can he be grouped with the other two? I love a good whoosh, as you may have noticed, but I take it you’re not truly a fan of the EEC\>EC\>EU. It’s got worse with every name change. Except for the people who work for the bloated organisation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/39 "2005-04-20T06:26:56Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > But was Orwell such an internationalist? Can he be grouped with the other two? Orwell hoped (in print) that WWII would end, not with the total dismantling of European colonial imperialism, but with an international federation encompassing all of Europe, Africa and India. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > I love a good whoosh, as you may have noticed, but I take it you’re not truly a fan of the EEC\>EC\>EU. To the contrary, **roger,** not only am I a fan of the EU, but I hope my own country will one day join it, as a necessary step on the path to global unification. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/40 "2005-04-20T06:34:52Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > And, Orwell went to a _really_ famous public school - not some old dump in the sticks. Well, kindasorta. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St\_Cyprian's\_School](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Cyprian%27s_School). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979.md?page=3)