# Is it slightly disgraceful to be an Englishman **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979 "2005-04-19T01:33:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/41 "2005-04-20T06:36:36Z")
But, after St. Cyprian’s, Orwell **did** attend Eton, if that’s what you meant. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eton\_College](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eton_College) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/42 "2005-04-20T06:47:15Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > **GMan** , ‘even the ever-more-right-wing British Labour party has remained a member of the Socialist Group in the European Parliament’ - well, assumedly because the PR boys have conducted studies and formed focus groups and the consensus is that there are more votes to be won … > > Long gone are the days when Socialist was happily used by a Labour MP as Tory was (and still generally is) used by a Conservative MP. It’s political poison, with its reminders (for older British people anyway) of the decline of Britain in the 1960s and 1970s, and especially of the tyranny exercised by the left-wing unions and their overlords. You contradict yourself - or are you really saying that a poison term in a Westminster election is nonetheless a votewinner for Euro MPs? Socialism _isn’t_ a dirty word, apart from within the confines of New Labour (and obviously among the right wing, who always hated it). (And there’s more voters who can’t remember the 60s than those who can 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/43 "2005-04-20T07:13:52Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > You contradict yourself . . . **roger** is large. He contains multitudes. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/44 "2005-04-20T08:26:40Z")
> [@roger](#): > > I love a good whoosh, as you may have noticed, but I take it you’re not truly a fan of the EEC\>EC\>EU. It’s got worse with every name change. Except for the people who work for the bloated organisation. It will become more effective and democratic with the next name change: USE. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/45 "2005-04-20T08:30:13Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > It will become more effective and democratic with the next name change: USE. You’re teasing, but I will take the bait: Union Socialiste de Europe? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/46 "2005-04-20T08:43:57Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re teasing, but I will take the bait: Union Socialiste de Europe? Well, United States of Europe (and maybe one day thereafter US _Earth_), but if the democratically elected government of such a country was socialist, I guess you could call it that. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/47 "2005-04-20T08:52:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] > [@Rune](#): > > Sure you can speak for everybody? Absolutely. My home is my castle and I am the undisputed ruler - unless my wife tells me otherwise – but I hold undisputed dominion over the guinea pigs! …and they don’t dare use the dirty word “socialists”! > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In Denmark the Social Democrats are the second-largest party in the Folketing and even the Socialist People’s Party has seven seats. And the ruling Liberal Party/People’s Conservative Party coalition has encountered stubborn resistance in its efforts to reform the Danish welfare state. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics\_of\_Denmark](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Denmark) Yeah, tell me about it. Well you know, in Denmark we have two kinds of dirty socialists. Those goddamn dirty extremist socialist bastards on the left - fortunately out of power. And those goddamn dirty socialist bastards on the right - unfortunately in power. And you forgot the Enhedslisten with four seats which aren’t even goddamn dirty socialists but goddamn dirty communists. The goddamn dirty socialists in the Social Democrats just lost the election and consequentially their not so great helmsman stepped back and there was an election to choose the successor. There were three candidates. One went out aggressively and called for nationalisation of banks, 30 hour working week and all kinds of other lunacy, he was simply too embarrassing to let run - even for the goddamn dirty socialists. Another a bit more serious contender tried to revive the class struggle but it backfired big time and he was sorta ridiculed for it. Probably lost the election over it too. The consensus among the goddamn dirty social democrats seemed to be that such had had its time, and that time was with gramps some forty years ago in another millennium. I think that is pretty much how they feel about a lot of their historical baggage – including the term “socialist”. When someone brings it up they can’t quite bring themselves to condemn it, it’s in their party programme and all. So they just kinda shuffles their feet uncomfortably, smile sheepishly and look embarrassed. Blair and the new Labour don’t see too warm on the word “socialist” either. The goddamn dirty Social Democratic movement has been in a crisis all over Western Europe and it is interesting to see how the parties in the different countries tried to deal with the problems. Whether they tried to revitalise old trusted dogma or reinvent themselves and move right with the population. The goddamn dirty Danish Social Democrats moved right. Sweden has gone or stayed left. The Netherlands and England have gone right too. Germany went right but now seems to be turning back left. Spain went left I think. France. Ahh France, they went everywhere at once. Italy went to hell in a shitbasket - but now seems like comming up for air - smelling like… well shit of couse, they are goddamn dirty socialists after all. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/48 "2005-04-20T08:53:59Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Well, United States of Europe (and maybe one day thereafter US _Earth_), but if the democratically elected government of such a country was socialist, I guess you could call it that. OMG, **Sentie** , you and **BG** not peas in a pod, I hope against hope. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/49 "2005-04-20T09:02:24Z")
'Fraid so, **rog**. I’d like a worldwide democracy sometime next century, please. Right now, China is like 1850’s Texas. If it can democratize some time in the next, say, 60 years (and of course, you have your ear far closer to the ground than I in that respect) I’d say we were on track. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/50 "2005-04-20T09:09:52Z")
Hmmm, **Rune**. Does all of that not suggest that _you_ are the one on the extreme **right** of European politics? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/51 "2005-04-20T09:16:14Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Hmmm, **Rune**. Does all of that not suggest that _you_ are the one on the extreme **right** of European politics? Don’t be ridiculous. I’m actually in the center. It’s everybody else that’s on the extreme left. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/52 "2005-04-20T09:32:36Z")
_Galileo_: (mutters) E pur si muove!🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/53 "2005-04-20T12:44:11Z")
I’m not sure if this is what Orwell was after, but an Indian grad student once told me that he thought the British must be the most disliked people on Earth, on account of their long history and broad reach of their colonialism. I don’t know how widespread that feeling is. I suspect there’s a great deal of ambivalence there, with both positive and negative aspects of the British legacy affecting people in the former colonies (as brought out in the film of **A Passage to India** ). I suspect the same sort of thing is now happening with the U.S. That isn’'t left-wing America-bashing – it’s simply observing the world reaction to U.S. actions with regard to Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/54 "2005-04-21T01:41:44Z")
> [@e-logic](#): > > Part of the problem is that it’s not entirely clear what exactly it means to be “an Englishman”. > > Certainly within the United Kingdom / British Isles, the Welsh, Scots and N. Irish appear to have a much clearer sense of identity as a result of being historically subordinate groups under overall English control. > > It’s often been perceived to be the case that > > English = British > > However, although > > Welsh / Scots / Manx = British > > it is also the case that > > Welsh / Scots / Manx != English > > There’s a clear tension there, and it’s only recently (with Scottish and Welsh devolution, however limited) that a particularly English national identity has found a resurgence. > > The re-appropriation of the Flag of St George is part of this reclamation of “englishness”, but it’s still associated for many people with the Far Right skinheads and so on. Orwell addressed that in _The Lion and the Unicorn:_ > [@](#): > > I have spoken all the while of ‘the nation’, ‘England’, ‘Britain’, as though forty-five million souls could somehow be treated as a unit. But is not England notoriously two nations, the rich and the poor? Dare one pretend that there is anything in common between people with £100,000 a year and people with £1 a week? And even Welsh and Scottish readers are likely to have been offended because I have used the word ‘England’ oftener than ‘Britain’, as though the whole population dwelt in London and the Home Counties and neither north nor west possessed a culture of its own. > > One gets a better view of this question if one considers the minor point first. It is quite true that the so-called races of Britain feel themselves to be very different from one another. A Scotsman, for instance, does not thank you if you call him an Englishman. You can see the hesitation we feel on this point by the fact that we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion. Even the differences between north and south England loom large in our own eyes. But somehow these differences fade away the moment that any two Britons are confronted by a European. It is very rare to meet a foreigner, other than an American, who can distinguish between English and Scots or even English and Irish. To a Frenchman, the Breton and the Auvergnat seem very different beings, and the accent of Marseilles is a stock joke in Paris. Yet we speak of ‘France’ and ‘the French’, recognizing France as an entity, a single civilization, which in fact it is. So also with ourselves. Looked at from the outsider even the cockney and the Yorkshireman have a strong family resemblance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/55 "2005-04-21T01:45:55Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The consensus among the goddamn dirty social democrats seemed to be that such had had its time, and that time was with gramps some forty years ago in another millennium. I think that is pretty much how they feel about a lot of their historical baggage – including the term “socialist”. When someone brings it up they can’t quite bring themselves to condemn it, it’s in their party programme and all. So they just kinda shuffles their feet uncomfortably, smile sheepishly and look embarrassed. Interesting . . . I get the impression that Europe’s various Christian Democratic parties have exactly the same attitude towards the word “Christian.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/56 "2005-04-21T01:53:34Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > 'Fraid so, **rog**. I’d like a worldwide democracy sometime next century, please. Right now, China is like 1850’s Texas. If it can democratize some time in the next, say, 60 years (and of course, you have your ear far closer to the ground than I in that respect) I’d say we were on track. **Like any sensible person,** I agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/57 "2005-04-21T07:23:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Interesting . . . I get the impression that Europe’s various Christian Democratic parties have exactly the same attitude towards the word “Christian.” The only Christian Democrats we have in Denmark seem preoccupied with prohibiting lesbians and single women from having artificial insemination. But they didn’t get enough votes in the recent election to enter parliament. Good thing too. They’re goddamn dirty socialist bastards. They describe themselves as being closest to the goddamn dirty Socialist People’s Party, and since the Socialist People’s Party is a splinter group from the goddamn dirty communists you can imagine how bad that is. Totalitarian ideologue with a thin veneer of suppositious bigotry. Yummy! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/58 "2005-04-21T13:03:24Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The only Christian Democrats we have in Denmark seem preoccupied with prohibiting lesbians and single women from having artificial insemination. But they didn’t get enough votes in the recent election to enter parliament. Good thing too. They’re goddamn dirty socialist bastards. They describe themselves as being closest to the goddamn dirty Socialist People’s Party, and since the Socialist People’s Party is a splinter group from the goddamn dirty communists you can imagine how bad that is. Totalitarian ideologue with a thin veneer of suppositious bigotry. Yummy! Is it slightly disgraceful to be a Dane? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/59 "2005-04-21T13:57:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is it slightly disgraceful to be a Dane? 🙂 If you by ”slightly disgraceful” mean that it suck big hairy saggy donkey balls. Then yes. I guess you can say that. My educated guess is that I’m paying penance for having been Attila the Hun in my former life. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979/60 "2005-04-21T14:03:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Is it slightly disgraceful to be a Dane? English from [Anglish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles). Guess where the Angles came from? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-slightly-disgraceful-to-be-an-englishman/299979.md?page=2)