# Is it standatard practice to start your church by writing bad checks? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229 "2013-05-24T15:02:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229/61 "2013-05-26T03:37:51Z")
> [@astro](#): > > For everyone huffing and puffing about the OP daring to mention the check bouncers race you need to step back. I lease commercial real estate in an area where there are always a lot of small black churches trying to get established and relative to other tenants and non black churches a substantial number are congenitally slow pay and bad pay. Many landlords refuse to rent to them because of this reputation. > > Why this is who knows but making the observation isn’t racism it’s reality. What a bizarre phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229/62 "2013-05-26T15:40:51Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > What a bizarre phenomenon. Not bizarre at all. The process is perfectly transparent. You have people with minimal resources and almost no business acumen inspired by a vision to start a church. When they call me and I start narrowing down what they want, they say they can afford (as an example) $ 500- $1000 a month and they need a space that can accommodate 200-300 people and parking. When I tell them politely this isn’t going to happen it gets shifted to 25 - 50 people which might be doable in some low end spaces. When churches with white, or Islamic or Hindu congregations call for space or land I’m usually dealing the preacher, but more specifically with the deacons (or equivalent) who are often professional businessmen. The larger black churches are also like this, its the small startups that are problematic. The income they get is from donations and specifically these are typically donations from underclass and lower middle class people. The cash flow model is constrained no matter which way you look at it. With a few rare exceptions these people don’t set out to willfully cheat people, they just run out of money for their dreams. If a preacher is really good the church can take off, but most struggle. For most small church preachers in this area the church is a second job and they have a day job. Beyond this most landlords really do not want to chase a church for money. It’s an embarrassing and tiring process and after being burned once many just say “no”. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229/63 "2013-05-26T16:10:18Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Not bizarre at all. The process is perfectly transparent. You have people with minimal resources and almost no business acumen inspired by a vision to start a church. When they call me and I start narrowing down what they want, they say they can afford (as an example) $ 500- $1000 a month and they need a space that can accommodate 200-300 people and parking. When I tell them politely this isn’t going to happen it gets shifted to 25 - 50 people which might be doable in some low end spaces. > > When churches with white, or Islamic or Hindu congregations call for space or land I’m usually dealing the preacher, but more specifically with the deacons (or equivalent) who are often professional businessmen. The larger black churches are also like this, its the small startups that are problematic. > > The income they get is from donations and specifically these are typically donations from underclass and lower middle class people. The cash flow model is constrained no matter which way you look at it. With a few rare exceptions these people don’t set out to willfully cheat people, they just run out of money for their dreams. If a preacher is really good the church can take off, but most struggle. For most small church preachers in this area the church is a second job and they have a day job. > > Beyond this most landlords really do not want to chase a church for money. It’s an embarrassing and tiring process and after being burned once many just say “no”. Overestimating your growth and having trouble paying the rent is one thing. Knowingly writing bad checks is another. I’ve put small PAs in churches that were meeting at someone’s home until they raised some money. They paid cash for what they could afford and they didn’t stiff anyone on the rent. I may be cynical but it appears to me that stiffing people and making them chase you for money has become some wierdly justified method of jump starting your ministry, and that the minsistry itself may be just a money making scam. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229/64 "2013-05-27T08:31:52Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Music is a real big deal in churches. It fires people up, puts asses in seats and fills the collection plate. True, but you can pull it off with just an amp in those tiny spaces. I’ve had to do that before. And, yes, my church often pays with money it doesn’t have… …because it takes out loans. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229/65 "2013-05-28T14:53:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > True, but you can pull it off with just an amp in those tiny spaces. I’ve had to do that before. > > And, yes, my church often pays with money it doesn’t have… > > …because it takes out loans. What tiny spaces? Do you know the square footage or how many people are in the audience? Do you know what kind of songs they like to do? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229/66 "2013-05-28T15:12:15Z")
I can imagine the difficulty in trying to convince a religious leader that God isn’t going to come through for him. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229/67 "2013-05-28T15:21:20Z")
A small church would be the last place I would accept a check from. Too many of these preachers are little more than con artists, or just plain con artists. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229/68 "2013-05-28T15:27:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can imagine the difficulty in trying to convince a religious leader that God isn’t going to come through for him. {waving bounced check} WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW???{/waving bounced check} ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229/69 "2013-05-28T18:18:42Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Music is a real big deal in churches. It fires people up, puts asses in seats and fills the collection plate. Also, compare the price of a PA (for a small combo) to the price of putting in a pipe organ (astronomical) and hiring someone who knows how to operate it and play it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-standatard-practice-to-start-your-church-by-writing-bad-checks/659229.md?page=3)