# Is it still OK to use the phrase Indian Summer? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 8, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065 "2020-11-08T17:41:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/1 "2020-11-08T17:41:27Z")
If not, what is the alternate term? We’re in the middle of a really nice one right now and it got me wondering. I’ve never heard an objection and never saw an alternate term. A little research, (very little) shows the term occured at least as early as 1778. It probably isn’t offensive, but that’s not for me to say. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/2 "2020-11-08T18:02:37Z")
I don’t know if it’s wrong to use the phrase but I’ve heard the local news weatherperson talking about “unseasonably warm weather”, which seems to convey the same meaning. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/3 "2020-11-08T18:14:04Z")
Could be a folk etymology, but I’ve heard that the origin goes back to a time when “Indian” was a synonym for “false”; cf, “Indian giver.” I’m not sure why “Indian” would be a synonym for “false,” unless there was a time when a lot of costume jewelry or some other kind of “looks expensive but it’s not” product came either from reservations or the sub-continent-- or even the Indies Islands. If that is the etymology, I’d say it’s offensive, but then, you could just say “false summer.” ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/4 "2020-11-08T18:19:33Z")
A beautiful old song… (these are not all the lyrics). > **“Indian Summer”** > > Summer, you old Indian Summer > You’re the tear that comes after June-time’s laughter > You see so many dreams that don’t come true > Dreams we fashioned when Summertime was new > > You are here to watch over > Some heart that is broken by a word that somebody left unspoken > You’re the ghost of a romance in June going astray > Fading too soon, that’s why I say > “Farewell to you, Indian Summer” [The rest of the words here.](https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/franksinatra/indiansummer.html) Ella Fitzgerald singing it: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/4E-a2bW1Rjs/maxresdefault.jpg "Ella Fitzgerald - Indian Summer") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E-a2bW1Rjs) ---
**Author:** ![peedin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peedin/32/14095_2.png) [@peedin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peedin)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/5 "2020-11-08T18:22:59Z")
I’m gonna guess Indian Summer is offensive. The Chicago Tribune annually printed the cartoon by J. McCutcheon titled Injun Summer. It was pulled about 10 years ago. I’m 63 and every autumn I looked forward to it. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/6 "2020-11-08T18:23:36Z")
> [@peedin](#): > > Injun Summer Well, yeah, “injun” is definitely offensive. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/7 "2020-11-08T18:24:40Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Could be a folk etymology, but I’ve heard that the origin goes back to a time when “Indian” was a synonym for “false”; cf, “Indian giver.” > > I’m not sure why “Indian” would be a synonym for “false,” unless there was a time when a lot of costume jewelry or some other kind of “looks expensive but it’s not” product came either from reservations or the sub-continent-- or even the Indies Islands. > > If that is the etymology, I’d say it’s offensive, but then, you could just say “false summer.” On the other hand, I’ve heard the explanation that Indians had to explain the weather pattern to early settlers. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/8 "2020-11-08T18:28:42Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Could be a folk etymology, but I’ve heard that the origin goes back to a time when “Indian” was a synonym for “false”; cf, “Indian giver.” > > I’m not sure why “Indian” would be a synonym for “false,” unless there was a time when a lot of costume jewelry or some other kind of “looks expensive but it’s not” product came either from reservations or the sub-continent-- or even the Indies Islands. > > If that is the etymology, I’d say it’s offensive, but then, you could just say “false summer.” I think you’re right that “Indian” was used for “false” - but there’s no mystery why. English often uses an enemy’s name to mean “false” - a “Dutch treat” is no treat at all, and “French leave” is desertion not “leave.” So “Indian summer” is a false summer, just like “Indian corn” (maize - yes, I know that “Indian corn” means something slightly different now, but “Indian corn” was originally just maize) meant “not really corn like we know it, but something that’s a bit like corn” (back when the English were using “corn” to mean wheat). ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/9 "2020-11-08T19:31:01Z")
Indigenous Peoples Summer! Please try to use the preferred nomenclature. You’re out of your element Donnie! ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/10 "2020-11-08T19:35:33Z")
Yes, related to the term Indian Giver. A first frost has to occur, followed by a warm spell, then back to colder weather. Essentially winter has “taken back” its gift of warmth. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/11 "2020-11-08T20:00:32Z")
[Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_summer), and other sources I’ve seen indicate ‘Indian’ means Native American, not false. ‘Indian Giver’ does not mean false giver, it means someone who takes back a gift, possibly a sense of a false giver, but are there any other uses of the ‘Indian’ in that manner? Lacking a credible source I’ll stick with the explanation provided in the wiki. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/12 "2020-11-08T20:05:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > it means someone who takes back a gift, possibly a sense of a false giver, but are there any other uses of the ‘Indian’ in that manner? Maybe a misunderstanding of potlatch? > **[Potlatch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch)** > > A potlatch is a gift-giving feast practiced by Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast of Canada and the United States, among whom it is traditionally the primary governmental institution, legislative body, and economic system.\[clarification needed\] This includes the Heiltsuk, Haida, Nuxalk, Tlingit, Makah, Tsimshian, Nuu-chah-nulth, Kwakwaka'wakw, and Coast Salish cultures. Potlatches are also a common feature of the peoples of the Interior and of the Subarctic adj A potlatch involves ... ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/13 "2020-11-08T20:12:29Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Maybe a misunderstanding of potlatch? I’m not seeing really seeing that. [This article discusses the term ‘Indian Giver’](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/02/217295339/the-history-behind-the-phrase-dont-be-an-indian-giver#:~:text=The%20concept%20of%20an%20%22Indian,an%20equivalent%20return%20is%20expected.%22) and doesn’t even find it that offensive. I think the offensive part is ascribing the behavior to ‘Indians’ because tons of cultures tolerate dubious manners when it comes to gifts. Despite hearing the story about ‘Indian’ meaning ‘false’ many times, I’ve never seen a credible source back that up. Doesn’t mean there isn’t such a source though, it hasn’t been my life’s work to track this down. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/14 "2020-11-08T23:14:51Z")
How about “Redskin Respite”? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/15 "2020-11-08T23:53:04Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Maybe a misunderstanding of potlatch? We don’t use the term “Indian giver” in Australia, but the indigenous cultures here certainly did have customs where giving a gift did not transfer ownership. Not that there is anything odd about that, but where there is ignorance, there is often cultural misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/16 "2020-11-09T00:07:08Z")
Googling a bit, I found that apparently “second summer” was a term that has been used before, and would still work. I think “unseasonably warm” has the drawback that global warming and climate change are a thing, so what counts as seasonable changes. But “second summer” could just mean “it went cool for a bit, but then got hot again.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/17 "2020-11-09T00:07:20Z")
There are a bunch of nice alternatives to the phrase “Indian summer” to designate warm autumn weather after the first frost(s). [“Gossamer” for “goose summer”](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/13/autumn-season-saints-little-summers-folklore-weatherwatch) may be my favorite, but probably too archaic. What we’re having now in the US would be approximately “St. Martin’s summer”. “Halcyon days” has an interesting classical history and [Shakespearean connections](https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/halcyon-days.html): > [@](#): > > Assign’d am I to be the English scourge. > This night the siege assuredly I’ll raise: > Expect Saint Martin’s summer, halcyon days, > Since I have entered into these wars. > (Henry VI, Part I) [Article on the origins of and alternatives to the phrase “Indian summer”:](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/lets-choose-a-new-name-for-indian-summer) > [@](#): > > In English, before Indian summer came into vogue, sometimes we called this “second summer.” There’s a strong case to be made for badger summer, pastrami summer, or quince summer as an alternate name for Indian summer, but perhaps simple is best. Enjoy these second summer days, before the frost of fall really sets in. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/18 "2020-11-09T00:19:44Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I don’t know if it’s wrong to use the phrase but I’ve heard the local news weatherperson talking about “unseasonably warm weather”, which seems to convey the same meaning. Not at all. “Indian Summer” refers to the completely predictable warm spell we usually get after the first frost. This year’s Indian summer is warmer than usual, but only by a few degrees. “Unseasonably warm weather” sounds like this is unexpected. I don’t care for “St. Martin’s summer” even if people understood me, because it sounds weirdly Christian. I like “goose summer”, but I don’t think anyone would understand it. Maybe I’ll try on “second summer”. That’s reasonably clear. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/19 "2020-11-09T09:55:23Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > “Indian corn” (maize - yes, I know that “Indian corn” means something slightly different now, but “Indian corn” was originally just maize) meant “not really corn like we know it, but something that’s a bit like corn” (back when the English were using “corn” to mean wheat). You have a cite for that? Because my understanding is that corn meant the main local cereal grain in wherever the speaker happens to be. So for England, yes, that’s wheat, but for Scotland that could be oats, or rye in parts of Europe. So “Indian corn” was just an identifier (compare “barleycorn”), not a real indicator of being _ersatz_. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/20 "2020-11-09T10:24:30Z")
I guess I’m pretty conservative when it comes to well-established usage, unless it’s clearly and truly offensive. All of the suggested alternatives to “Indian summer” are problematic, IMHO. “Unseasonably warm”, as already stated, conveys a sense of a random unexpected weather event rather than a fairly regular occurrence in the fall. “Second summer” is potentially confusing. If someone says, “if you plant this shrub, don’t do any pruning until the second summer”, does that mean not until a warm period in the fall, or not until the following summer? According to Wikipedia, “_Although the exact origins of the term are uncertain, it was perhaps so-called because it was first noted in regions inhabited by American Indians, or because the Indians first described it to Europeans, or it had been based on the warm and hazy conditions in autumn when American Indians hunted._” So this seems to be a case of looking for potential offensiveness where the actual people being referenced don’t have a problem with it. At least, I’ve never heard any of the indigenous North American population complain about it. If they do have a problem with it, then sure, we should revisit the issue. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065.md?page=2)