# Is it still OK to use the phrase Indian Summer? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 8, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065 "2020-11-08T17:41:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/21 "2020-11-09T10:31:54Z")
There was a good discussion of both “indian summer” and “indian giver” in this thread from last year: [Which side is the term "Indian Giver" perjorative towards? - #36 by Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-side-is-the-term-indian-giver-perjorative-towards/841355/36) But it doesn’t look like a consensus was reached on whether “indian summer” is indeed pejorative. I guess best avoided if in doubt. “Little summer” seems like a reasonable alternative. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/22 "2020-11-09T14:20:16Z")
Whatever you call it, it was responsible for my grass needing another mowing. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/23 "2020-11-09T14:50:29Z")
Wikipedia says: > [@](#): > > Although the exact origins of the term are uncertain, it was perhaps so-called because it was first noted in regions inhabited by American Indians, or because the Indians first described it to Europeans, or it had been based on the warm and hazy conditions in autumn when American Indians hunted. In addition to such conjectures, a great depth of Native American folklore is attributed to describing this phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/24 "2020-11-09T15:02:08Z")
The phrase may be more acceptable because this warm spell is almost always welcome. Certainly, as a kid, I associated “indian summer” with good things. And hey, maybe the origin is “this extra bit of summer we get here in India”, which wouldn’t be offensive at all. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/25 "2020-11-09T15:04:12Z")
As a SoCal native, I’ve never used the term. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/26 "2020-11-09T15:50:08Z")
Do you even get frosts in SoCal? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/27 "2020-11-09T15:53:26Z")
Isn’t “the extra bit of summer you get in India”, well, the entire year? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/28 "2020-11-09T16:13:32Z")
We did, especially in the desert. But the phrase was not one I grew up hearing. I don’t think I’ve heard it here in Washington, either. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/29 "2020-11-09T16:38:04Z")
Unfortunately, I can’t find a direct cite (I find various people [Take Our Word For It Archives H-J](http://www.takeourword.com/et_h-j.html#insum) referring to “The Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins” by William and Mary Morris as _their_ cite for the idea, but a suitable excerpt isn’t available online). Therefore I have to admit that I could be wrong - though the line between “the local version of” something and “a substandard or bogus version of something” is a thin one, particularly for colonists who assumed the superiority of all their ways. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/30 "2020-11-09T17:31:09Z")
Feather India, not dot India. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/31 "2020-11-09T17:54:03Z")
Interesting thread, I guess I’d always thought it was hangover from the British Raj, but now that I find it’s American in origin, I’d certainly say it’s in inappropriate. I found an old BBC article on the subject which said > Shakespeare … used the expression “All Halloween Summer” in Henry IV part I for a period of warm sunshine as October gives way to November. Has a certain ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/32 "2020-11-09T17:59:08Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Interesting thread, I guess I’d always thought it was hangover from the British Raj, but now that I find it’s American in origin, I’d certainly say it’s in inappropriate. I found an old BBC article on the subject which said > > > Shakespeare … used the expression “All Halloween Summer” in Henry IV part I for a period of warm sunshine as October gives way to November. It really is interesting because I always thought “Indian Summer” had a British origin and “Halloween” an American one. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/33 "2020-11-09T22:41:17Z")
The fact I don’t find “Indian Summer” offensive does not mean much. I’ve never thought about it, but am going to start using the phrase “Second Summer” in the rare instances I refer to it. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlax/32/2927_2.png) [@Scarlax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlax)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/34 "2020-11-10T00:10:16Z")
Pippin : We’ve had one, yes. What about **second summer**? Merry : I don’t think he knows about **second summer** , Pip. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/35 "2020-11-10T01:36:43Z")
As someone who has a bit better documentation about my Cherokee background than Elizabeth Warren (just messing with you Liz!), I don’t find it personally offensive, and find myself still using it on occasion. That said, I know better than to speak for all Native Americans and will definitely start working on removing it from my vocabulary. We’re enjoying a lovely second summer in Atlanta at the moment! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/36 "2020-11-10T01:39:39Z")
> [@Scarlax](#): > > Pippin : We’ve had one, yes. What about **second summer**? Merry : I don’t think he knows about **second summer** , Pip. What about Novemberses? Yuletides? Mid-winter thaws? He knows about them, doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/37 "2020-11-10T01:56:12Z")
Second Summer sounds like a decent replacement. We’ve had a beautiful second summer the last several days. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/38 "2020-11-10T02:05:48Z")
> [@Daithi\_Lacha](#): > > Yes, related to the term Indian Giver. A first frost has to occur, followed by a warm spell, then back to colder weather. Essentially winter has “taken back” its gift of warmth. Actually, it’s a period of of unseasonably warm weather that occurs after the vernal equinox and after a hard freeze. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/39 "2020-11-10T06:05:46Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > A beautiful old song… (these are not all the lyrics). [A different one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1wnAsSB71M) (live Mazzy Star/Opal version, originally done by [The Doors](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zHZzxJtOKw)). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065/40 "2020-11-10T07:06:39Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Actually, it’s a period of of unseasonably warm weather that occurs after the vernal equinox and after a hard freeze. (Emphasis added.) Nitpicking because I think you meant “autumnal”. (True, “second summer” or “Indian summer” does fall a fortiori after the vernal equinox too, but then so does the entire regular or first summer, so it wouldn’t be particularly useful as an identifying characteristic.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-ok-to-use-the-phrase-indian-summer/925065.md?page=3)