# Is it still possible to work your way up from the mailroom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 13, 2014, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511 "2014-11-13T05:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/41 "2014-11-14T03:20:37Z")
My late uncle was in management at UPS (quite high up as I understand it.) If it’s still the same now, they ONLY hire from within, so everybody there starts as a package handler or driver. (He did. And at the time he died, a year from retirement, he had to wear suits in the office - not a sportcoat and jacket, a two or three piece suit - but if he was on a truck for any reason he had to wear the brown shorts uniform.) I know they’re one of the few places where you can be a part timer and they’ll help with your college education, too. Unfortunately, I’ve also heard that these days it’s extremely difficult at UPS to go from part time to full time, which is of course how you get anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/42 "2014-11-14T12:03:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Isn’t the First Lord of the Admiralty the equivalent of the US Secretary of the Navy? Because in the US, there is no requirement that the Secretary of the Navy have any naval experience, even if most of them were navy veterans. It is, but Gilbert was satirizing that fact. Gilbert wrote novelizations of most of his plays for kids, and here’s the part of the novelization introducing the character: > [@](#): > > One of the most important personages in the Government of that day was Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty. You would naturally think that a person who commanded the entire Navy would be the most accomplished sailor who could be found, but that is not the way in which such things are managed in England. . Sir Joseph Porter, who had risen from a very humble position to be a lawyer and then a Member of Parliament, was, I believe, the only man in England who knew nothing whatever about ships. Now as England is a great maritime country it is very important that all Englishmen should understand something about men-of-war. So as soon as it was discovered that his ignorance of a ship was so complete that he did not know one end of it from the other, some important person said: “Let us set this poor ignorant gentleman to command the British Fleet, and by that means give him an opportunity of ascertaining what a ship really is.” This was considered to be a most wise and sensible suggestion, and so Sir Joseph Porter was at once appointed “First Lord of the Admiralty of Great Britain and Ireland.” I daresay you think I am joking, but indeed I am quite serious. That is the way in which things are managed in this great and happy country. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/43 "2014-11-14T12:22:33Z")
I don’t think that anyone’s yet mentioned the military (the US’s). At least two enlisted men (in some sense the equivalent of mail room workers) have risen to be Chief of Staff of their respective branch of the armed forces. [Gen. Larry Welch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_D._Welch) (USAF) [Adm. Jeremy Boorda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Michael_Boorda) (USN) ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/44 "2014-11-14T14:09:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Are you aware of any actual CEOs who have made this bogus claim in such circumstances, or is this just your opinion of what CEOs would probably do? Yes, actually. Years ago I worked for a company called Capital Cities Communications, which got bigger and bigger through a series of mergers with other media companies. The CEO like to give “inspirational” talks to his employees, which included the “started in the mailroom” line (as an aside, how come none of these guys ever claim to have started in the custodial department, cleaning bathrooms or something? It’s always the mailroom). And I remember James Brady, a columnist for Advertising Age, writing a column about this very phenomenon. It was back in the 80s, so I can’t dig up a link. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/45 "2014-11-14T14:48:26Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > But he’s the first to tell you\* that it couldn’t be done today. His “lowly” BS wouldn’t get him an interview with himself by the time he was in a management position. > \*Although at the same time, he’s insistent that anyone could be successful just like him if they really tried, and all those whiners making minimum age are just lazy losers. The man cannot comprehend modern student debt or the level of education required to be successful in what he considers “real” careers. I don’t see any contradiction at all here. There’s a certain amount of effort that you need to expend in order to be successful, and if you won’t expend it you won’t be successful. But where you expend that effort could vary by circumstance. In your father’s time it was possible to get by without an advanced degree but you had to work hard at other things to get ahead. Now part of the hard work is getting an advanced degree, but it’s still just a matter of effort. Your father’s position is - or could be, at least - that these minimum wage people weren’t willing to put in the effort that he did, although in their cases that effort would be in getting a higher level of education. I don’t know what your father’s actual position is, and it could be that he’s inconsistent. But what I’ve written seems covers both of his position and is consistent. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Yes, actually. Years ago I worked for a company called Capital Cities Communications, which got bigger and bigger through a series of mergers with other media companies. The CEO like to give “inspirational” talks to his employees, which included the “started in the mailroom” line What you were talking about earlier was people starting in the mailroom as part of a training program with preplanned advancement and pretending that they worked teir way up. It sounds here like you’re talking about something else - a guy starting in a small company which was more flexible. > [@](#): > > (as an aside, how come none of these guys ever claim to have started in the custodial department, cleaning bathrooms or something? It’s always the mailroom). I think the skills of a mailroom involve some minimal amount of mental capacity, which, if demonstrated, offer the possibility of advancement. If you’re really really good at cleaning toilets no one thinks you should therefore move into some white collar management job. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/46 "2014-11-14T17:16:44Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Yes, I think they are. He specifically worked for Apple and was denied for promotion through a HR red flag for not having a college degree. The situation is such that you are not going to start out at Apple and then through hard work, dedication, good reviews etc. move up the corporate ladder of that company very far. > > There were indeed people pulling for him, but the HR person has no real incentive to take the risk of doing something like hiring someone who does not have a degree if that is one of the boxes that needs to be checked. I don’t doubt that it’s quite hard to work your way up. Maybe it really is impossible at Apple. But I doubt that. And your single example doesn’t prove that it’s impossible (just like my lack of specific knowledge of Apple’s internal practices doesn’t prove that it’s possible). But HR ultimately answers to somebody, and if that somebody really wants to hire you, HR can stuff their paperwork and their red flags. Is it easy to gain the attention of someone high up enough that they pull strings for you? Of course not. It’s incredibly hard. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/47 "2014-11-14T17:29:06Z")
It’s often all about connections. Ingratiation. Jon Peters, for instance, worked his way up from Barbra Streisand’s hairdresser to the head of Sony Pictures Entertainment by using her influence. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/48 "2014-11-14T17:43:38Z")
While I did have a B.A., I started out as a temporary secretary at a major financial institution, and today I am a Vice President. Most of my rise was due to hard work (being able to meet tight deadlines, staying late and working weekends when necessary, etc.), but I was also helped along by the tech revolution and having a few good mentors. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/49 "2014-11-14T18:31:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What you were talking about earlier was people starting in the mailroom as part of a training program with preplanned advancement and pretending that they worked teir way up. It sounds here like you’re talking about something else - a guy starting in a small company which was more flexible. [No, not at all.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Cities_Communications) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/50 "2014-11-14T19:08:16Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > The mailroom to boardroom stereotype is probably more common in countries with a lot of immigrants and immigrant families. After a generation or three those immigrant families who can make it have probably already done so; whereas first and 2nd generations are still jumping at the bit. > > Didn’t Andrew Carnegie go from mailroom(of sorts) to boardroom? Yep, although in his case, it was partly due to the fact that the company president took a liking to him and became his mentor. Of course, that was over a hundred years ago – the question is, is it still possible today? ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/51 "2014-11-14T19:29:02Z")
I’m still trying to work my way up TO the mailroom.:o ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/52 "2014-11-14T19:33:33Z")
I’ve seen something similar. In many cases, of course, it was recognition of superior ability (and a willingness of the company to move people around). it depends on the company. My general observation, is that old-school firms (not tech firms) tend to be run either by their accounting department or their sales department. In fact, being too good in a technical department meant that you would not advance, because your boss would realize you were irreplaceable. I worked for a company once that was instead run by its engineering department. As a result, the router to the top was to get an engineering degree, work your way up, show talent, and be given an opportunity to work as management on the plant floor, to see if you were executive material. very rarely the non-engineers got high up in the company. They would take non-engineers who showed talent - technical designers and the like - and send them to college to get an engineering degree. So yes, you could start out as mail clerk (back when they had one) bid for other non-degree internal postings, eventually land somewhere where you demonstrated promise and work your way up - but eventually they’d want you to go back and get a degree. (They eventually laid off th mail room guy, the head of building maintenance also did mail, the accounting secretary did mail sorting half time, then it became a job for anyone on light duty rather than have them stay home and collect worker’s compensation) Most corporations, however, the entry level positions do not require degrees; there were people who landed in the lower-end accounting or sales jobs without a degree. If they showed promise, they could work their way up. I assume in the USA like Canada, you can obtain an accounting certification in your off hours, which would be required to move up. Then, ability counts for more than papers. So the first trick is getting your foot in the door. In a larger corporation, for example, they tend to post most jobs internally first. It might be possible to go from warehouse grunt to assistant cost analyst (grunt) in the Accounting department, or entry level sales, even with zero experience, if you have good interview skills and impress the bosses. Somewhere before 2000, the landscape changed. Companies became more likely to hire from the outside (head-hunters) than rely on internal talent. As someone mentioned in an earlier post, contracting out was all the rage. The company I retired from - they used to have a sub-department in head office dealing with retirees and pensions - now all that is managed by an outside accounting firm (which was a step up - the two ladies I dealt with were complete morons). Going from the mailroom up is harder because there’s no mailroom, almost nobody in between, and they are likely to hire from outside for senior executives. So the trick today would be to puff your resume, and parlay your experience into a promotion into a new employer. Go from junior to senior sales staff in A to Sales Department Manager in B to VP of Sales and Marketing in C to CEO of D Ltd. So you still work your way up from the mailroom, just it’s someone else’s mailroom. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/53 "2014-11-14T20:00:19Z")
Now I have heard that Disney hires from within so I have heard that if you start out say taking tickets or picking up trash, you then can apply for the better jobs. So lets say you have a degree in finance. You start working for Disney taking tickets and after a year, you can then apply for a finance job. So Disney from what I have heard has some highly educated people picking up trash. I used to work for DST and there one had to work in a base job for a year before they could apply for one of the better jobs. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/54 "2014-11-16T08:40:29Z")
Of course it is still possible. I think that a LOT of people are capable of being CEOs. The trick is how to get there. At one company I worked, there was a woman who was mid-range competent. She was, however, hotter’n a firecracker, w/big tits. Our manager began speaking of her “natural” (not even joking) talents, and she was, ever after, regarded as a “whiz kid.” When the manager thinks you’re great, you are on the fast track, regardless of what your skills are. Next, she was supervisor-she got extra training, made more connections, more money; then manager, etc…up the pyramid. This was within the last 5 years, or so. There is a given formula to 'working up from the mailroom": it is just impressing those above you, at every step, letting them train you, and include you in their inner circle, until this is repeated enough times. It’s called ‘having connections’, etc… There never was a prescribed career path or a degree program for doing it, so, there never was a cutoff date for working ones way up from the mailroom. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/55 "2014-11-16T17:25:50Z")
… making notes here … So the secret to advancing to the top is to have big tits. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/56 "2014-11-17T15:31:40Z")
I’m not sure it would work in your case. But by all means, go for it! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/57 "2014-11-18T20:06:27Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I don’t doubt that it’s quite hard to work your way up. Maybe it really is impossible at Apple. But I doubt that. And your single example doesn’t prove that it’s impossible (just like my lack of specific knowledge of Apple’s internal practices doesn’t prove that it’s possible). But HR ultimately answers to somebody, and if that somebody really wants to hire you, HR can stuff their paperwork and their red flags. > > Is it easy to gain the attention of someone high up enough that they pull strings for you? Of course not. It’s incredibly hard. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Well _everything_ is possible according to some theories of physics. I would say it’s nearly impossible you would say it’s harldy possible and someone else might say it’s impossibly hard - and we could quibble all day over the exact meaning of all of that. But I digress. I think what is really different in regards to the meat of the OP’s question is “are things different.” I say they are, my little anecdote aside, I would say that the biggest thing changing the working world at the moment is technology. More specifically to the question, I think HR departments are using data to a much greater extent than they used to and are giving it far greater weight in the decision making process. What does this mean exactly? It means that boxes must be checked, and preset parameters must be met for someone to advance these days in a way that is different from a couple decades ago. I think a relevant analogy exists in the world of baseball. After Sandy Alderson began placing greater emphasis on sabermetrics (as opposed to scouting reports) with stunning results in the '90’s, other teams quickly followed suit. A similar situation has been happening in business I believe, a greater emphasis on data is replacing an older system of gut feelings a and personal intuition(or biases YMMV). ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/58 "2014-11-30T05:35:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … making notes here … So the secret to advancing to the top is to have big tits. Got it. Not \*THE \*secret… \*A \*secret. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511/59 "2014-11-30T10:32:35Z")
> [@Flywheel](#): > > I once met a CEO who worked his way up from the mailroom. When I asked him the secret of his success, he said “Reading everyone else’s mail.” I had a friend who worked in a mail room for a big insurance company. Part of her job was opening the envelopes: mail was opened to remove cash/cheques, then routed by content, not envelope address. Another part of the job was keeping back one of the bags each day, so that there was _always mail in the mail room at the start of the day._ The managers upstairs got stroppy if there wasn’t mail on their desk at the start of the day, so the mail room kept some slack in case first delivery was late. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-still-possible-to-work-your-way-up-from-the-mailroom/704511.md?page=2)