# "Is it that the Dems don't understand white, working-class America?" No, that's not it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291 "2016-11-28T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/241 "2016-12-05T17:13:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If so, I think your (not you personally) values are seriously out of whack and you deserve a lot of criticism. Nothing Hillary did or proposed comes close to as bad as the damage that bigotry does to America. What damage has been done by racism since Trump has been elected? To many people, Hillary represents corruption and plutocracy. There is little that is more destructive of democracy than corruption. Every Republican candidate since I can remember has played to racists to varying degrees. Maybe you didn’t hear it because they used dog whistles but racism isn’t new to presidential politics. Its sort of the reason why so many poor stupid white southerners vote against their interests. They think they are voting for the white team. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/242 "2016-12-05T17:16:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bigotry has done far, far more damage (slavery, near genocide, Jim Crow, etc) to America and Americans than corruption. Bigotry is far, far worse. Bigotry doesn’t kill democracy nearly as well as corruption. Democracy can defeat bigotry (see slavery, near genocide, Jim Crow, etc.) but corruption can turn democracies into plutocracies. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/243 "2016-12-05T17:21:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Meet the new GOP boss, worse than the old GOP boss. Just listen to this evil racist bigot and all the evil racist bigots who agree with him. The fact that all these racists were voted into office just proves how racist America is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/244 "2016-12-05T17:22:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What damage has been done by racism since Trump has been elected? > > To many people, Hillary represents corruption and plutocracy. > > There is little that is more destructive of democracy than corruption. > > Every Republican candidate since I can remember has played to racists to varying degrees. Maybe you didn’t hear it because they used dog whistles but racism isn’t new to presidential politics. Its sort of the reason why so many poor stupid white southerners vote against their interests. They think they are voting for the white team. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Bigotry doesn’t kill democracy nearly as well as corruption. > > Democracy can defeat bigotry (see slavery, near genocide, Jim Crow, etc.) but corruption can turn democracies into plutocracies. So we’re just disagreeing on which is worse. I look back at American history and see that bigotry did orders of magnitude more damage, both to Americans and to American democracy, than corruption. I don’t see it as even close. Bigotry brutalized and murdered millions, for almost 2 centuries of American history. For most of our history it’s pretty damn hard to argue that we were a democracy when so many had no chance of being heard and voting. It wasn’t corruption that did this – it was bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/245 "2016-12-05T17:23:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you have people, you are going to have corruption. That’s pretty much an unavoidable situation. > > The trick is to limit the corruption to as little as possible, and have what does go on be the kind of productive corruption that everyone expects. (The politician gets a kickback, but the road does get built.) > > Now, can you show me why people thought that Obama and or Clinton were more corrupt than Donald Trump, without relying on fake news? > > I don’t think that the amount of corruption in the party of the government was the reason for the election, but the perception of the amount of corruption, as pushed by fake news sites, may have been. > > How exactly you combat perceptions that are based on lies is a topic for another [ongoing thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=811583) Obama? Who said Obama was corrupt? Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Donna Brazile. Secret speeches to Wall Street and other oligarchs and plutocrats. The Clinton Foundation. These things all look pretty bad. The acid test is going to be the fundraising success that the Clinton Foundation enjoys in coming years compared to previous years. The Clinton political capital took a large hit this election cycle. If the Clinton Foundation fundraising remains pretty steady then the previous donations probably weren’t pay for play. If it drops significantly, then you have to wonder whether people were paying for access and influence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/246 "2016-12-05T17:34:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The acid test is going to be the fundraising success that the Clinton Foundation enjoys in coming years compared to previous years. The Clinton political capital took a large hit this election cycle. If the Clinton Foundation fundraising remains pretty steady then the previous donations probably weren’t pay for play. If it drops significantly, then you have to wonder whether people were paying for access and influence. Or, if it drops, perhaps the conspiracy theorists successfully damaged its reputation enough (with or without evidence) that people are less likely to donate to it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/247 "2016-12-05T17:37:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There has been progress, but electing someone who ran on bigotry is a big setback. Bigotry also can undermine the rule of law and the legitimacy of the state, in addition to the many other terrible things it does. > > I don’t think there’s a comparison. In US history, bigotry is responsible for the subjugation, brutal oppression, and deaths of millions. Corruption doesn’t come close. Even if we’ve made a lot of progress in opposing bigotry, preventing backslides _absolutely must_ be a higher priority even than things like opposing corruption. There’s still enough hatred in society, and still enough apathy about the fate of minorities, that terrible things could happen if we’re not careful. You know, he didn’t actually run on bigotry, right? Show me some of this backsliding. Have we started passing laws? Do we see an uptick in hate crime? Have we started oppressing people? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/248 "2016-12-05T17:46:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You know, he didn’t actually run on bigotry, right? He didn’t _only_ run on bigotry, but bigotry (birtherism) was how he became prominent politically in recent years, and bigotry (Muslim ban, Mexicans are rapists, the judge should step down because he’s Mexican, etc.) was largely how he won the Republican nomination. It was a big, big part of his campaign, if not the only part. > [@](#): > > Show me some of this backsliding. Have we started passing laws? Do we see an uptick in hate crime? Have we started oppressing people? Laws and oppression require bigotry to be in power, and it isn’t until January 20th. As far as hate crimes, yes, they have increased significantly: [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/fbi-hate-crimes-muslims.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/fbi-hate-crimes-muslims.html?_r=0) > **[‘Make America White Again’: Hate speech and crimes post-election | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/us/post-election-hate-crimes-and-fears-trnd/)** > > Fears of heightened bigotry and hate crimes have turned into reality for some Americans after Donald Trump’s presidential win. And the list of incidents keeps growing. > **['Trump effect' led to hate crime surge, report finds](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38149406)** > > A prominent rights group says it found hundreds of incidents of harassment after Donald Trump's election win. So yes, we have backslid to some degree, and this is absolutely terrible for America. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/249 "2016-12-05T17:47:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Your problem there is, when you vote a bigot into office, you’re undermining the faith in democracy for everyone who isn’t part of that bigot’s in-group. Which isn’t a big deal in a homogenous society - America got along just fine for more than a century with the most appalling kinds of bigots in the White House, because the vast majority of the population wasn’t directly impacted by that bigotry. In a diverse and multi-racial society, though, that can be a death sentence for the country. > > That’s not to say that I think Trump is going to start rounding up Muslims and Mexicans and putting them in camps, or that blacks and queers are primed to rise up in open revolt. We’re not at that point on either side, and Trump’s probably not the guy who’s going to take us there. But the fact that he ran a campaign that was highly hostile to minorities, _and won_, is an incredibly dangerous sign. Trump’s shown that you can run an openly racist platform and win on a national level. If he’s not rebuked at the ballot in two or four years - if he wins a second term using the same tactics - what sort of candidate is going to follow him? If 2024 sees Republican candidates scrambling to be the next Trump, how much farther are they going to take his rhetoric? At what point, exactly, are presumptive non-bigots like **Damuri Ajashi** going to finally draw the line on supporting a bigot to further their own self-interest? And at what point do the populations targeted by a bigoted political machine start resorting to violence to protect themselves from that political machine? > > Political corruption is an important concern, absolutely. Nobody wants to see the US turn into another Russia. But better another Russia than another Yugoslavia. I didn’t vote for Trump, I just think all the hyperventilating about Trump is premature. I also think that too many liberals are getting mentally lazy about reading the results of the election. They just chalk it up to racism and viola, mystery solved. Racism, THAT’S why Trump won!!! I think Hillary is a horrible person and a horrible candidate but even Hillary was a more palatable candidate than Trump to me. Not just because he was riling up the racists (almost every Republican candidate in my lifetime has done that), but because he has a much higher risk tolerance than someone who will be in a position to end the world ought to have. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/250 "2016-12-05T17:50:39Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > That is just stupid. If you voted for the known bigot, then you didn’t oppose bigotry. You supported it. First I didn’t vote for Trump. And second, I know plenty of pro-life folks who voted for Hillary despite her pro-choice position because they don’t think Trump is a decent person. Do these pro-lifers support abortions now? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/251 "2016-12-05T17:52:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Edmund Burke wants to have words with you. ??? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/252 "2016-12-05T18:07:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > We’re not overlooking that fact. We are trying to come to terms with that fact. What you are saying in your statement is that hate is stronger than logic or common sense. While, given recent events, this has proved to be true, I think alot of us are still trying to find a way to combat that type of blind hatred. We could start by not nominating HRC. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/253 "2016-12-05T18:20:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So we’re just disagreeing on which is worse. I look back at American history and see that bigotry did orders of magnitude more damage, both to Americans and to American democracy, than corruption. I don’t see it as even close. Bigotry brutalized and murdered millions, for almost 2 centuries of American history. For most of our history it’s pretty damn hard to argue that we were a democracy when so many had no chance of being heard and voting. It wasn’t corruption that did this – it was bigotry. If you think we will EVER go back to slavery, Jim Crow and any of that shit, then yes we disagree on which is worse. I think there is ZERO threat of slavery and genocide of Indians in our future. 2000 veterans rallied to Standing Rock to protest a pipeline alongside dirty hippies and Indians. I don’t think we are heading back in that direction as long as we can maintain our democracy. I think corruption is an actual threat to the country, it can derail our democracy in a way that a bigoted president cannot. I think bigotry (which AFAICT has played a central role in every presidential election since I was born) is a rhetorical and emotional threat. If Trump calls for a registry of Muslims, I will go and register myself. I don’t think Jesus would mind. But I put the chances of that happening at zero. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/254 "2016-12-05T18:25:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Or, if it drops, perhaps the conspiracy theorists successfully damaged its reputation enough (with or without evidence) that people are less likely to donate to it. Already with the excuses? I think you suspect that the Clinton Foundation was in fact part of the cost of admission to the Clinton court. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/255 "2016-12-05T18:26:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Already with the excuses? I think you suspect that the Clinton Foundation was in fact part of the cost of admission to the Clinton court. Did you get your mind reading skills from **adaher**? Quit with this useless crap. If you want to know what I’m thinking, ask. Don’t guess. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/256 "2016-12-05T18:34:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you think we will EVER go back to slavery, Jim Crow and any of that shit, then yes we disagree on which is worse. I think there is ZERO threat of slavery and genocide of Indians in our future. 2000 veterans rallied to Standing Rock to protest a pipeline alongside dirty hippies and Indians. I don’t think we are heading back in that direction as long as we can maintain our democracy. If “any of that shit” includes the incredibly vast universe of racism in the US _other than_ slavery and Jim Crow, then I think it’s distinctly possible. I think sundown towns still exist (Vidor, TX is one such place that I drove through regularly in the early 2000s), and more, and many more could pop up pretty easily if the inhabitants of many all-white small towns decide that it’s okay again to do so. Red-lining is pretty easy to see coming back – favorable loans and other business/financial incentives provided to white areas of town, but not black areas, though crafted legislatively with creative language to seem non-racist. And much, much more. Even relative low-grade racism like sundown towns and red-lining are abominable and monstrous, and far, far worse than anything corruption has caused in the US. > [@](#): > > I think corruption is an actual threat to the country, it can derail our democracy in a way that a bigoted president cannot. I think bigotry (which AFAICT has played a central role in every presidential election since I was born) is a rhetorical and emotional threat. > > If Trump calls for a registry of Muslims, I will go and register myself. I don’t think Jesus would mind. But I put the chances of that happening at zero. I think you’re unaware of the extent of racism beyond the “big hitters” like slavery and Jim Crow. I don’t think slavery and Jim Crow will come back. But we’ve already seen efforts at voter restrictions, sundown towns still exist and could spread (in relative secrecy, through informal efforts) once again, and hate crimes have been spiking. And this is just the beginning. There’s an incredibly vast gulf between slavery and no racism – we’ve made a great deal of progress, and we’re very far from slavery, but we’re not that far from some really bad shit in American society that happened well into the late 20th century and beyond. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/257 "2016-12-05T19:06:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We could start by not nominating HRC. Well, sure, we could combat the hatred by yielding to it, and not nominating an exceedingly qualified candidate because people are shouting that she should be locked up or executed for the moral equivalent of jaywalking. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/258 "2016-12-05T19:55:22Z")
We could have nominated other exceedingly well qualified candidates. Nobody is owed the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/259 "2016-12-05T20:01:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …but because he has a much higher risk tolerance than someone who will be in a position to end the world ought to have. That’s a good point. Liberals have been known to be more willing to risk _[other](http://stuff.is-a-geek.net/random/Forums/Risk-Demotivator.jpg)_ people’s money, livelihoods, safety, etc. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/260 "2016-12-05T20:05:09Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > …not nominating an exceedingly qualified candidate because people are shouting that she should be locked up or executed for the moral equivalent of jaywalking. Gawd, you are a fucking idiot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=14)