# "Is it that the Dems don't understand white, working-class America?" No, that's not it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291 "2016-11-28T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/481 "2016-12-15T17:33:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > She was hoping they would be more repulsed by him than by her. She was wrong. He was bolstered by many years of the Republican Party spreading lies and innuendoes about her before he even began his campaign, poisoning many minds(including yours). Propaganda works, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/482 "2016-12-15T17:36:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I ask this in total sincerity: is there a connection between my question and your reply? Yes. You are saying that Trump was not beatable by any Democrat as a defense of Hillary when i say she is a shitty candidate and THAT is why she lost. You want to continue to believe that Hillary was a good candidate, the best we had to offer. And that makes Trump fucking unbeatable. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/483 "2016-12-15T17:39:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He was bolstered by many years of the Republican Party spreading lies and innuendoes about her before he even began his campaign, poisoning many minds(including yours). Propaganda works, folks. My mind was pretty open until wikileaks showed us that she was a corrupt cheater that was saying mean things about banks while sucking up to them in private. That all happened during the election. I call bullshit on the whole “Republicans have been smearing her for so long that she never had a chance”. Then why the FUCK did we nominate her? ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/484 "2016-12-15T17:41:31Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Roll all of this together and you get a candidate who is uniquely ill suited to run against a charismatic person whose entire platform consists of “I’m not a politician”. She’s like every political sin rolled together into one person for many people, while Trump is kind of like the opposite of that. I am not convinced that anyone who really thinks Trump is charismatic would have voted for _any_ Democratic candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/485 "2016-12-15T17:48:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > My mind was pretty open until wikileaks showed us that she was a corrupt cheater that was saying mean things about banks while sucking up to them in private. That all happened during the election. I call bullshit on the whole “Republicans have been smearing her for so long that she never had a chance”. Then why the FUCK did we nominate her? 1. “We” couldn’t predict how low the opposition would go to smear her. 2. “We” were undercut by assholes pretending to be Democrats undercutting her at every turn, which bolstered the Trump supporters to no end. 3. “We” didn’t believe that the ends justified the means when it came to winning this election, but the Republicans did. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/486 "2016-12-15T17:53:55Z")
> [@random6x7](#): > > I am not convinced that anyone who really thinks Trump is charismatic would have voted for _any_ Democratic candidate. Part of the problem was that no one really thought Hillary was charismatic either, but they expected people to vote for her anyway. They didn’t; they stayed home. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/487 "2016-12-15T17:54:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > My mind was pretty open until wikileaks showed us that she was a corrupt cheater that was saying mean things about banks while sucking up to them in private. This is bullshit. If Trump’s entire public history couldn’t convince you that he was a corrupt cheater, but unvetted information stolen by a hostile foreign government and released by an organization with an anti-Clinton agenda convinced you that _she_ was, than you are either an absolute idiot or a partisan liar. ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/488 "2016-12-15T18:10:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Part of the problem was that no one really thought Hillary was charismatic either, but they expected people to vote for her anyway. They didn’t; they stayed home. > > Regards, > Shodan True, but she had actual ideas and experience. I think if her campaign had done a better job of highlighting her plans instead of just airing anti-Trump ads, she probably would’ve won. In this election, I don’t think charisma was a factor, frankly. That may have been why Obama beat her, but it wasn’t why Trump did. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/489 "2016-12-15T18:22:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This is bullshit. If Trump’s entire public history couldn’t convince you that he was a corrupt cheater, but unvetted information stolen by a hostile foreign government and released by an organization with an anti-Clinton agenda convinced you that _she_ was, than you are either an absolute idiot or a partisan liar. Posts like this need a like button, simply because there is nothing more to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/490 "2016-12-15T18:23:59Z")
> [@random6x7](#): > > True, but she had actual ideas and experience. That’s my point - the Democratic establishment thought people would vote for her decidedly un-charismatic self, because she had a rep as a policy wonk, and because her husband won twice (although he never got a majority of the popular vote). > [@](#): > > . In this election, I don’t think charisma was a factor, frankly. That may have been why Obama beat her, but it wasn’t why Trump did. Obama beat her because of his overwhelming edge among blacks and other traditional Democratic constituencies. Hillary didn’t have that edge, in 2008 or 2016. Trump actually got more black and Hispanic votes than Romney did. Trump’s big edge was his advantage among whites, especially working-class whites, in strategic states. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/491 "2016-12-15T18:39:09Z")
Her lack of charisma hurts her against charismatic opponents like Obama. I’m saying it was not a factor _this_ election because the only people who think Trump is charismatic are either firmly in his corner or are looking for any way to blame Clinton. Clinton needed more people in a very few areas to come out to vote. There are a number of reasons this didn’t happen, and the only one under her control was her messaging. Not Trump wasn’t exciting enough. With hindsight, I wish they had released lots of ads with the kind of energy and messages that the convention had. Clinton got a huge bump from that, even though it wasn’t her speech thatpeople were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/492 "2016-12-15T19:01:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I call bullshit on the whole “Republicans have been smearing her for so long that she never had a chance”. Then why the FUCK did we nominate her? Of course Hillary has horrible approval numbers after decades of Republican attacks, but don’t worry, they’re baked in. Everyone who hates her already hates her. Can’t vote for Bernie because it’s her turn, which always worked out great for the GOP by the way, and Bernie isn’t even a real Democrat. We hate Citizens United but we’ll use its logic to say that Hillary isn’t corrupt, you can’t show a quid pro quo when she gives speeches to her Wall St. friends unless you have a time machine. Checkmate, socialists. We don’t need clueless Bernie bro votes since all the women and minorities will vote for Hillary. The GOP is undergoing a demographic collapse and may not even exist in its current form in a decade. Everyone will love Hillary because of '90s nostalgia. I think that was most of the talking points. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/493 "2016-12-15T19:09:15Z")
> [@random6x7](#): > > Her lack of charisma hurts her against charismatic opponents like Obama. I’m saying it was not a factor _this_ election because the only people who think Trump is charismatic are either firmly in his corner or are looking for any way to blame Clinton. I disagree. I am by no means in Trump’s corner, and I, personally, find his style repellent, but I think there’s absolutely no question that many _Republicans_ find him appealing and exciting. And that’s what charisma is, the ability to get your own base enthused about voting for you. Trump (and Obama) had it, Clinton didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/494 "2016-12-15T19:19:45Z")
Yes, opinions are going to differ on who is charismatic. But Trump’s so-called charisma didn’t extend to anyone who was ambivalent about him. Mainstream Republicans and people who supported other Republican candidates actively disliked him until they realized they were stuck with him. Trump can rally his supporters, but he does nothing special for people who aren’t already fans. Obama was able to make the ambivalent excited about his presidency. He’s able to reach those who don’t agree with him, as long as they don’t loathe him. ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/495 "2016-12-15T19:36:07Z")
Also, could someone please tell me where Clinton or her campaign insisted it was her turn? Or proof that that’s the main reason any Democrats supported her? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/496 "2016-12-15T19:36:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. “We” couldn’t predict how low the opposition would go to smear her. Can you give me an example. Or is Hillary just a generic victim. > [@](#): > > 1. “We” were undercut by assholes pretending to be Democrats undercutting her at every turn, which bolstered the Trump supporters to no end. Supporting a shitty candidate just because she is a Democrat sounds a lot like putting party before country or conscience. I understand your perspective that the loss is everyone’s fault but hers but she lost to Donald bobblehead fucking Trump. You don’t get to lay that off on anyone else. > [@](#): > > 1. “We” didn’t believe that the ends justified the means when it came to winning this election, but the Republicans did. Really? So is that what they were thinking when they were feeding her debate questions and twisting the primary process? Hillary’s campaign seemed to be engaging in a teensy tiny bit of ends justifying the means, didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/497 "2016-12-15T19:37:00Z")
> [@random6x7](#): > > Yes, opinions are going to differ on who is charismatic. But Trump’s so-called charisma didn’t extend to anyone who was ambivalent about him. Mainstream Republicans and people who supported other Republican candidates actively disliked him until they realized they were stuck with him. Trump can rally his supporters, but he does nothing special for people who aren’t already fans. Obama was able to make the ambivalent excited about his presidency. He’s able to reach those who don’t agree with him, as long as they don’t loathe him. You may be correct that Trump’s “charisma” did not extend very far beyond those who were going to vote for him anyway. But he was able to fire up his base. Hillary couldn’t do that. Lots of voters who were Obama’s base didn’t vote for her. They didn’t vote for anybody; they stayed home. Trump won because he motivated his base. Hillary lost because she didn’t motivate hers. If you want to call that a relative lack of charisma, I have no objection. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/498 "2016-12-15T19:43:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This is bullshit. If Trump’s entire public history couldn’t convince you that he was a corrupt cheater, but unvetted information stolen by a hostile foreign government and released by an organization with an anti-Clinton agenda convinced you that _she_ was, than you are either an absolute idiot or a partisan liar. Are you saying that those emails are fake? Or are you just pissed off that her corruption and duplicity were uncovered before the coronation? If you need me to curse Trump again, I will. I think Hillary was the lesser of two evils. that’s why I held my nose and voted for her, I wish I hadn’t compromised my principles for nothing but I did. But reasonable people could disagree. In what way is Trump corrupt? People keep saying that… did he cheat during the election or something? AFAICT, he raised and spent less than half of what Hillary raised and spent. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/499 "2016-12-15T19:44:43Z")
> [@random6x7](#): > > True, but she had actual ideas and experience. I think if her campaign had done a better job of highlighting her plans instead of just airing anti-Trump ads, she probably would’ve won. In this election, I don’t think charisma was a factor, frankly. That may have been why Obama beat her, but it wasn’t why Trump did. Thats just one of many many reasons why Hiillary lost to a to the most beatable Republican candidate since Nixon after watergate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/500 "2016-12-15T19:46:13Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Posts like this need a like button, simply because there is nothing more to be said. What public history convinces you that he is a corrupt cheater? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=26)