# "Is it that the Dems don't understand white, working-class America?" No, that's not it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291 "2016-11-28T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/601 "2016-12-19T07:28:31Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …well you don’t seem too bright. So not understanding why this was directed at you does not surprise me at all. It seems to have eluded you as well. Hopefully, cryptic rants won’t be as prevalent after a year or two of The Donald’s reign. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/602 "2016-12-19T08:07:09Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m disgusted by the real voter fraud in Detroit that the left is silent about. A bunch of Democrat criminals counting ballots 2-3 times in Detroit and we don’t hear about that. Cite? (Not a cite for your disgust, nor for the fact that we didn’t hear about the fraud — I admit I didn’t — but for the fraud itself.) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/603 "2016-12-19T09:19:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Cite? (Not a cite for your disgust, nor for the fact that we didn’t hear about the fraud — I admit I didn’t — but for the fraud itself.) > **[Half of Detroit votes may be ineligible for recount](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/05/recount-unrecountable/95007392/)** > > Widespread voting problems could mean more than 50 percent of Detroit precincts can’t be recounted > [@](#): > > Most of those are in heavily Democratic Detroit, where the number of ballots in precinct poll books did not match those of voting machine printout reports in 59 percent of precincts, 392 of 662. > > According to state law, precincts whose poll books don’t match with ballots can’t be recounted. If that happens, original election results stand. > > “It’s not good,” conceded Daniel Baxter, elections director for the city of Detroit. > > He blamed the discrepancies on the city’s decade-old voting machines, saying 87 optical scanners broke on Election Day. Many jammed when voters fed ballots into scanners, which can result in erroneous vote counts if ballots are inserted multiple times. Poll workers are supposed to adjust counters to reflect a single vote but in many cases failed to do so, causing the discrepancies, Baxter said. If poll workers are failing to do their jobs with the knowledge that extra votes will be disproportionately for the Democratic candidate isn’t that fraud? They knew the vote count was inaccurate and certified it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/604 "2016-12-19T13:46:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > [recount-unrecountable](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/05/recount-unrecountable/95007392/) > > If poll workers are failing to do their jobs with the knowledge that extra votes will be disproportionately for the Democratic candidate isn’t that fraud? They knew the vote count was inaccurate and certified it anyway. So, because the Republican led state had not bought new machines, and were making them use old ones with problems, you call that fraud? At the very most, you could say that there are discrepancies, and you might even say that poll workers were not as well trained and engaged in dealing with these failing pieces of equipment, you may be correct in that the vote count did not accurately reflect the voters choices, but to accuse fraud you have to assume that there was some sort of intent to defraud. Can you in any way shape or form show this? If this is the best you can do to demonstrate some sort of tu quoque, you are failing miserably. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/605 "2016-12-19T14:08:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You mean the one where she got the debate questions and the referees were in the bag for her? THAT primary? She won the primary because more people voted for her, not because of the debates. She probably would have won the primary if she hadn’t even showed up to the debates. Bernie’s a great guy, but he didn’t really have a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/606 "2016-12-19T14:51:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, because the Republican led state had not bought new machines, and were making them use old ones with problems, you call that fraud? Did you read the quoted part of the cite? > [@](#): > > Poll workers are supposed to adjust counters to reflect a single vote but in many cases failed to do so, causing the discrepancies, Baxter said. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/607 "2016-12-19T15:02:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Did you read the quoted part of the cite? > Regards, > Shodan Clarify exactly where the fraud occurred, please, along with proof that what occurred was fraud rather than, say, a mistake by poll workers. > [@](#): > > He blamed the discrepancies on the city’s decade-old voting machines, saying 87 optical scanners broke on Election Day. Many jammed when voters fed ballots into scanners, which can result in erroneous vote counts if ballots are inserted multiple times. Poll workers are supposed to adjust counters to reflect a single vote but in many cases failed to do so, causing the discrepancies, Baxter said. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/608 "2016-12-19T15:28:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Did you read the quoted part of the cite? > Regards, > Shodan Did you read the quoted part of my post? > [@](#): > > At the very most, you could say that there are discrepancies, and you might even say that poll workers were not as well trained and engaged in dealing with these failing pieces of equipment, you may be correct in that the vote count did not accurately reflect the voters choices, but to accuse fraud you have to assume that there was some sort of intent to defraud. > Can you in any way shape or form show this? Or are you too contending that this was actually fraud? Would you be willing to say it qualifies as “…real voter fraud in Detroit that the left is silent about. A bunch of Democrat criminals counting ballots 2-3 times in Detroit and we don’t hear about that.” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/609 "2016-12-19T15:33:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, because the Republican led state had not bought new machines, and were making them use old ones with problems, you call that fraud? > > At the very most, you could say that there are discrepancies, and you might even say that poll workers were not as well trained and engaged in dealing with these failing pieces of equipment, you may be correct in that the vote count did not accurately reflect the voters choices, but to accuse fraud you have to assume that there was some sort of intent to defraud. > Can you in any way shape or form show this? > > If this is the best you can do to demonstrate some sort of tu quoque, you are failing miserably. Uh huh. He is claiming that old and busted machines = deliberate fraud by the OTHER side. Not trained, not diligent enough, out on a smoke break, OK. Deliberate fraud? I don’t think so. Of course if the count had gone the other way, I bet there would be no outrage at all. But here’s one big difference. Wisconsin had their recount and I understand Trump still won the state. And I’m OK with that, because it’s one less state with questions hanging over it. At least one state has now had its count validated as being legit. I’m still steamed over the “other shit” such as Russia hacking into both the DNC and RNC (even though they did it to help Trump thereby meddling in and sabotaging our business) , and setting up entire fake news “agencies” to target one of the candidates. I also still want to know what the recount and audit results will be at the end of all this. And I meant it when I said that anyone who is pleased with Putin and his gang fucking with our elections just to get a fucking clown in the White House, can go to Russia and live under Putin. Party BEFORE country seems to be the theme lately. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/610 "2016-12-19T15:42:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > She won the primary because more people voted for her, not because of the debates. She probably would have won the primary if she hadn’t even showed up to the debates. Bernie’s a great guy, but he didn’t really have a chance. Just more proof that “someone” or several “someones” don’t are about the actual order of events (or maybe ANY facts at all) as long as The Message is out there. “Fake News” or something. We make our own reality, we live in the post truth world, we were always at war with Oceania, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/611 "2016-12-19T19:35:12Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’ll explain it in a way even you will understand … Go fuck yourself. [Moderating] Telling other posters to fuck themselves is a violation of the Pit’s language rules. Please avoid this in the future. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/612 "2016-12-19T19:48:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, because the Republican led state had not bought new machines, and were making them use old ones with problems, you call that fraud? > > At the very most, you could say that there are discrepancies, and you might even say that poll workers were not as well trained and engaged in dealing with these failing pieces of equipment, you may be correct in that the vote count did not accurately reflect the voters choices, but to accuse fraud you have to assume that there was some sort of intent to defraud. > Can you in any way shape or form show this? > > If this is the best you can do to demonstrate some sort of tu quoque, you are failing miserably. So when Russians phish some Democrat dummies and leak truthful emails it’s somehow The Donald’s fault. You guys have no problems piling on and slinging all sorts of accusations in that case. Yet, when actual Americans in Detroit make the same mistake in over 1/2 the precincts you guys look for proof of intent? Even though knowingly certifying dishonest vote tallies is clearly wrong? What other explanation can it be, that in a heavily Democrat city to choose to certify the vote tally while knowing it was inaccurate, but fraud? Intellectual dishonesty is why you folks blame The Donald when he didn’t do anything yet excuse the Democrat Party when they make “mistakes” by knowingly certifying inaccurate ballot counts. Honestly how hard is it to count? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/613 "2016-12-19T20:00:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So when Russians phish some Democrat dummies and leak truthful emails it’s somehow The Donald’s fault. You guys have no problems piling on and slinging all sorts of accusations in that case. > > Yet, when actual Americans in Detroit make the same mistake in over 1/2 the precincts you guys look for proof of intent? Even though knowingly certifying dishonest vote tallies is clearly wrong? What other explanation can it be, that in a heavily Democrat city to choose to certify the vote tally while knowing it was inaccurate, but fraud? > > Intellectual dishonesty is why you folks blame The Donald when he didn’t do anything yet excuse the Democrat Party when they make “mistakes” by knowingly certifying inaccurate ballot counts. Honestly how hard is it to count? The ends justify the means, and the enemy of our enemy is our friend. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/614 "2016-12-19T20:20:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yet, when actual Americans in Detroit make the same mistake in over 1/2 the precincts you guys look for proof of intent? Even though knowingly certifying dishonest vote tallies is clearly wrong? What other explanation can it be, that in a heavily Democrat city to choose to certify the vote tally while knowing it was inaccurate, but fraud? Step 1: Put old broken machines in Democratic districts Step 2: When machines don’t work, accuse Democrats of voter fraud! Brilliant plan. Maybe add a step 3: ignore Russian interference in elections. Ignore that Trump is appointing a literal traitor to his cabinet. Ignore that Trump is a pussy grabber. Ignore that Trump is a liar. Ignore that Trump is corrupt. Ignore everything that matters because it makes your side look bad. Maybe your side looks bad because you elected Trump? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/615 "2016-12-19T20:32:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So when Russians phish some Democrat dummies and leak truthful emails it’s somehow The Donald’s fault. You guys have no problems piling on and slinging all sorts of accusations in that case. > > Yet, when actual Americans in Detroit make the same mistake in over 1/2 the precincts you guys look for proof of intent? Even though knowingly certifying dishonest vote tallies is clearly wrong? What other explanation can it be, that in a heavily Democrat city to choose to certify the vote tally while knowing it was inaccurate, but fraud? > > Intellectual dishonesty is why you folks blame The Donald when he didn’t do anything yet excuse the Democrat Party when they make “mistakes” by knowingly certifying inaccurate ballot counts. Honestly how hard is it to count? Buddy, your false equivalence meter is broken. You are equating the intentional actions of a foreign country, with whom we have had tense relations for generations with the actions of a few poll workers using poorly maintained equipment. Now, when someone fed their ballot twice, because of mechanical failure (Is that the democrat’s fault, was the secretary of state a democrat?) the poll workers needed to notice that this happened, and then perform what I hope is a relatively involved task to then “reset” the vote count. (I hope this is rather involved, otherwise, it seems a pretty good place for vote tampering [though I actually do not know what is involved, and the news story didn’t go into much specifics.].) If they had failed to do this only once, then that would be enough to cause the inconsistencies reported. If only once, someone tried to put their ballot in the machine, got it jammed, and put it through again, without a poll worker noticing, or one poll worker messing up the “reset”, and you get these results. This is really a fault of the machines that were provided to these districts, and possibly some level of training or engagement on the poll worker’s part. It would be quite a ridiculous stretch to call it criminal or fraud. Now, while I think it would be best if votes were counted properly, and this recount gives us a chance to see where some of those failures are, you described it as, “real voter fraud in Detroit that the left is silent about. A bunch of Democrat criminals counting ballots 2-3 times in Detroit”. Now, do you still stand by that statement? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/616 "2016-12-19T21:17:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > was the secretary of state a democrat? The Secretary of State responsible for the voting problems was Ruth Johnson, who is in fact a Republican. But since she’s a Republican the concept of personal responsibility no longer applies, and the Democrats are to blame. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/617 "2016-12-19T22:18:14Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > The Secretary of State responsible for the voting problems was Ruth Johnson, who is in fact a Republican. > > But since she’s a Republican the concept of personal responsibility no longer applies, and the Democrats are to blame. This is called the socialization of republican responsibility. They’re big fans of the socialism these days. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/618 "2016-12-19T23:14:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The ends justify the means, and the enemy of our enemy is our friend. > > Right? It is certainly how you work. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/619 "2016-12-20T00:01:43Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > It is certainly how you work. > > Slee No U!!! (I usually don’t try to converse at that low a level. Did I do it right?) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/620 "2016-12-21T16:14:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You _should_ have to work to feed yourself and your children. Then don’t complain if we set the minimum wage rate at a level that is sufficient to feed yourself and your children. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=32)