# "Is it that the Dems don't understand white, working-class America?" No, that's not it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291 "2016-11-28T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/761 "2017-01-06T03:24:15Z")
> **[The many times Donald Trump has lied about his mob connections](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/donald-trump-lies-about-dealings-mafia-figures/)** > > He apparently lied under oath to deny he associated with organized crime figures. This covers donnies denial that he knew a mobster that threatened to “castrate him.” It was published before the election. So he wasn’t scared? _ **Oh yeah** _, he said that out of “professional courtesy.” That’s it. Just like when sharks don’t eat lawyers. All people who deal with the mob are vulnerable to something. What kind of idiot doesn’t know that? The mob doesn’t operate through violence if they have other leverage. They are a business after all. Now that donnie is going to divest into a “blind trust” (do not laugh) he won’t be dealing with US mobsters anymore. How likely is it that they forget him now that he’s the big cheese? They might even have a little insurance somewhere in a vault, just in case. Why wouldn’t they? Do you foresee a lot of mob prosecutions under donnie the T? You know donnie _ **loves** _ the bad boys. And he likes russians too. It seems like a match made in heaven to me. Tell me when I get into theory and I’ll stop. I’m not interested in conspiracies. Just due diligence. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/762 "2017-01-06T03:36:15Z")
> **[Security Analysts Issue Dire Warning: Trump Is The ‘Manchurian Candidate’ Of...](https://reverbpress.com/world/donald-trump-russian-mafia-manchurian-candidate/)** > > A Closer Look At Donald Trump’s Links To The Russian Mob Respected international policy journal Global Security has officially named Donald Trump This must be where whatchamacallit got his reverse marching orders and talking points from. But he must not have read it. I guess if he says “manchurian candidate” enough times he thinks these issues will go away into fairy land? Conspiracies don’t need to be proposed or true, for there to be something wrong. It usually is just people doing what they do to benefit themselves. Then it gets complicated. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/763 "2017-01-06T03:41:31Z")
Anybody who thinks the Russians only hacked Hillary and the DNC is delusional. And as for them finding dirt on Trump, this _is_ the guy who wouldn’t release his tax returns. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/764 "2017-01-06T05:16:41Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > But the whole reason for your whining is that she let donald be elected. And not ONE word about how the Rebubs let him get the nomination to begin with. I guess EVERYONE in the R party was a lousy shitty terribad uberfail candidate. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/765 "2017-01-06T05:42:46Z")
[http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2014/01/former-colombo-enforcer-discusses-the-brighton-beach-mob-and-more/](http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2014/01/former-colombo-enforcer-discusses-the-brighton-beach-mob-and-more/) Q: Any stories of interaction with other organized crime “families”, such as Russian mob, Yakuza, Outlaw bike clubs, mexican prison gangs, etc? A: A million. Spent 20 years in the life. Organized the Russian mob from Brighton beach in the gas business. Best partners I ever had. I taught them how to defraud the government out of hundreds of millions of dollars of tax money back then. They now are deep into medicare fraud, setting up fraudulent medical clinics all over the country. Would take hours to tell you all the stories. Take care. Dummi, you still hanging in there? Don’t go anywhere. I want you right here. I had to share this one. See the quoted part. It really sets me to thinking about the whole repeal and replace movement which is happening as we speak. Watch this space for what trumpcare is really going to be about. I predict that all the hillary fairy tales will prove to have been psychological projection by those who would because they could, and dummys let them do it. > **[What are Putin's links to Russian organised crime?](https://www.quora.com/What-are-Putins-links-to-Russian-organised-crime)** > > Answer (1 of 8): Though not sure about Putin’s links….. > > Based on Wiki Leaks could be: > > 1. Paid protection to organised crime such as Human trafficking and drug peddling > 2. Money laundering > 3. Smuggling arms > 4. Profiting from wars and conflicts > 5.... Here is one about Putins links to organized crime. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/766 "2017-01-06T06:08:32Z")
…Damuri Ajashi: I’m gonna concede the point on drad dog. 🙂 Everything else stands. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/767 "2017-01-06T06:14:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because the Democrats don’t want to admit just how awful and stupid many Americans are. Because only an idiot or scum\* would\* believe that. > > They want to convince themselves that people didn’t know what they were voting for, so they don’t have to admit that millions of Americans knowingly support and admire psychopathy and bigotry. Thank you Der Trihs for proving my point. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/768 "2017-01-06T06:33:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …Damuri Ajashi: I’m gonna concede the point on drad dog. 🙂 Everything else stands. Well I like you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/769 "2017-01-06T08:38:51Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Thank you Der Trihs for proving my point. An empty “gotcha” attempt, since you didn’t even specify what your supposed point is. If you are going with the silly line about how the Democrats lost because they were mean to the poor oppressed bigots, that’s nonsense. This election was won by lies and hatred; not by being nice. If the Democrats were half as dishonest and nasty as their opponents claim, _they_ would probably have won; this election demonstrates that’s what the American public \*wants. \*Lies and hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/770 "2017-01-06T10:16:15Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Well I like you. …I think I like you too. 😃 Just stop trying to help me out here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/771 "2017-01-06T13:48:53Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > But the whole reason for your whining is that she let donald be elected. So your thesis depends logically on the horribleness of donald being the winner of the contest. Other than that you have no raison here. Except maybe normalizing donald. > > If hillary is terrible to the extent that she let donald be elected, that already makes that argument: that he must be worse as pres elect than she was as candidate. You have already ceded the point that you should stfu and move on, but you just don’t know it yet. > Damuri Ajashi said: \*\*\*“WTF are you talking about? Hillary wasn’t a horrible candidate because she would have been a horrible president. Hillary was a horrible candidate because she can’t win competitive elections.” > > * * * > > No. You said she was a horrible candidate because she couldn’t beat trump. You don’t know how she fares speculatively. You are spinning tales again. Cya Her only election win was as NY senator. The Democratic party of NY told all other primary candidates to drop out so she could run unopposed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/772 "2017-01-06T13:53:03Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > [http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/russia-hacking-us-response-john-mccain-233218](http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/russia-hacking-us-response-john-mccain-233218) > > If one just keeps repeating that concerns about ties between donald and russia are “conspiracy theories”, then one is choosing to own the unfolding shitstorm now. > > Unless one stopped reading the news on November 9. Or has an agenda where curiosity has no place for some reason. Very strange. Since people keep bringing it up. The conspiracy theory isn’t that Russia might have been behind the hacked emails hat revealed Hillary’s duplicity, cheating, and corruption. The conspiracy theory is that Trump is somehow a puppet of Russia, because he is a Manchurian candidate or because he will succumb to threats of physical violence by the Russian Mafia or some other cockamamie reason. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/773 "2017-01-06T13:54:55Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Maybe there’s something to my parody theory: > > [When It Comes To Russia, So Far Donald Trump Mostly Stands Alone](http://www.npr.org/2017/01/05/508221093/when-it-comes-to-russia-so-far-donald-trump-mostly-stands-alone) Come on man. Don’t encourage him. Its cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/774 "2017-01-06T13:57:55Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > \*\*\*"WTF are you talking about? How did I distort the argument? Drad Dog literally said that it was stupid to believe that Trump would be immune to threats of violence against himself or his family \*\*\* (sic) _**(re:the Russian mafia being able to control Trump)."**_(sic) > > [List of United States presidential assassination attempts and plots - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots) > > Of course donnie is just as invulnerable and strong as they need him to be, in their minds. > > You know in 1966 some people were kind of worried that Bob Dylan might be such a lightning rod that someone would make an attempt on his life. > > Think of the bad karma and rancidness spewed over the last year. If anyone else said the things donnie has said in public, and engaged in such exploits, they would be talking about this all the time. But donnie has magic fairy dust on him, because we don’t need no stinking truth anymore. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > Damuri Ajashi said: "Presidents still get assassinated but Presidents have generally been immune from intimidation from threats of physical violence. > > You know whenever I am informed of an assassination plot on my life I just say thank god I’m immune from intimidation and threats. You don’t have the secret service and the FBI protecting you. You don’t have the might of the most powerful military in the world at your beck and call. The notion that some nation or organization could exert this sort of influence over POTUS is fucking retarded. Stop being retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/775 "2017-01-06T16:23:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …oh get over yourself you big baby. You are not the "sole proponent of the “Hillary lost because she sucks” side of the argument. > > But lets pretend that you are the “sole proponent” of the “Hillary lost because she sucks” side of the argument. Do you think you are just smarter than everyone else in the world? Are you so arrogant that you have some sort of unique insight that no-one else can see? So who else is a proponent of that position on this board? I’m sure there are others that agree with me o this board. I’m positive that other agree with me out in the real world but no one on this bard seem to be a proponent (I suspect its because most people can’t be bothered to deal with retards unthinking apologists like you). > [@](#): > > Strawman again. I never claimed Trump was some sort of a political mastermind. You’re right. You said that Hillary was a good candidate but Trump was even better. > [@](#): > > I talk about what I think happened here: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19771732#post19771732](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19771732#post19771732) > > I have more thoughts on what happened than this: but I’d much rather put the work into starting a new thread on it in the next few weeks. So if you don’t mind waiting… > > And Trump is President Elect. The evidence seems to be on my side, not yours. My position is that Trump was a shitty candidate that only won because he was facing an even shittier candidate. Your position seems to be that Hillary was a good candidate but she los to an even better candidate. I think there is a lot of evidence that Trump was a shitty candidate. Trump winning says nothing about how good he is, only that he is better than Hillary. And your explanation for the Hillary loss is not made clear by your post. > [@](#): > > Thank you for conceding it may be true. I was being polite. I may also be a unicorn. > [@](#): > > Cite that Hillary Clinton felt the need to cheat? And please quote her directly thanks. She actually cheated. Why do we need words from her saying “I felt the need to cheat” You’re being retarded. > [@](#): > > You seem to be faulting the process: not the candidate. The candidate corrupted the process by cheating. You simply cannot wave away the fact that she cheated during the primary. You simply cannot wave away the fact that the Democratic political establishment in the form of the Democratic National Party was pretty focused on nominating Hillary. > [@](#): > > What an incredibly stupid thing to say. So then please explain the “boo fucking hoo” reaction to complaints about Hillary cheating. Or do you think cheating doesn’t compromise the integrity of elections? I’m just trying to figure out which flavor of retard you are. > [@](#): > > We aren’t talking about the elections here. We are talking about the Democratic Primaries. Oh, you’re THAT flavor of retard. Cheating during primaries doesn’t really count only cheating during the general election does?!?!?! > [@](#): > > Clinton Derangement Syndrome strikes again. Are you seriously talking about “character” when you are comparing Hillary Clinton with Donald Fucking Trump? Hillary Madonna syndrome strikes again. How am I comparing Hillary and Donald in terms of character. I can point to about 300 million Americans with better character than either of them. > [@](#): > > Yes you did. And? And apparently you are immune to facts. > [@](#): > > Of course I’m operating under the assumption that Trump was a strong candidate. > > Because Trump was a strong candidate. > > You have said nothing to convince me otherwise. Like I said, you are immune to facts, reason and common sense. There’s no known cure but scientists are working on it as we speak. > [@](#): > > Oh get over it you big baby. Like I said, the integrity of elections don’t seem to matter much where you’re from. I don’t know how you can wave away cheating and say 'get over it" I’m embarrassed for you. I’m embarrassed for your country. > [@](#): > > Are you 16 years old? No, I’m old enough to have voted for George H W Bush. How about you? > [@](#): > > Not the truth. Your obsession. I’m obsessed with the truth > [@](#): > > You just keep thinking Trump “got lucky”. And in four years time he will be President again. He got lucky by having Hillary to run against. If he gets lucky again and people like you disregard the lessons of this election and nominate someone like Hillary again, he could win again. > [@](#): > > And I think everybody accepted that on the night of the election. And yet here you are, a month later, still can’t let it go. > > I agree. WHAT THE FUCKITY FUCK FUCK!!! You agree the basic premise of everything I have been saying? Then why the fuck have we been exchanging these walls of text??? > [@](#): > > Oh grow up you big baby. I wonder how you would feel if it was revealed that Trump got the debate questions in advance. Shame on your for dismissing cheating so flippantly. > [@](#): > > Of course it wasn’t. > > Bernie is a “dirty socialist who wants to spend your taxes.” Sure Bernie was a populist candidate. But could he have out-trumped Trump? You think yes, I think no, what we both think doesn’t really matter. I only bring up Bernie because he was an alternative. Certainly not the only one or even the best one. I think any one of a dozen or so prospective Democratic candidates could have beaten trump and a handful would have wiped the floor with him. > [@](#): > > If he ran out of time then that is his fault: no one elses. What if the russian mafia threatened him and his family with physical violence? Or in this case, what if Hillary’s friends at the DNC told him to back off. Hillary’s fatal flaws were not as visible early on. > [@](#): > > Biden should have run if he wanted to run. Running because they considered Clinton to be “weak” would have been a foolish move not only for Biden, but for the people of the United States. > > Then he should have ran. I place some of the blame on good candidates like him who had a duty to run but were scared off by the Clinton political machine. I bet Biden has the decency to blame himself a little bit. Heck I bet Hillary even has the decency to blame herself for her loss, only the acolytes of the cult of the Madonna Hillary seem to think she is not to blame. > [@](#): > > I’ve got more than just “I’ve got a feeling.” What you got? > [@](#): > > I’m saying that things are infinitely more complicated than you make them out to me. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If Bernie were the nominee, and if he had have lost the same states that Hillary lost, we would be sitting here lamenting that “I can’t identify a single blue state she would have lost.” Yes if the results would have been exactly the same then it would be hard to see how anything would have been different. :smack: The position I am taking is that Bernie beat Hillary in some of those states where Hillary lost by less votes than the attendance at a high school football game. > [@](#): > > Oh for fucks sakes. It doesn’t matter that Trump grabs them by the pussy. It doesn’t matter that Trump kisses them and doesn’t even ask. It doesn’t matter that Trump doesn’t pay his bills. Only because he as running against Hillary. The pussy grabbing lost him votes just not enough to lose to someone like Hillary. > [@](#): > > After this trainwreck of an election: are you really still obsessed with calling Hillary a cheater? Its no wonder your side lost. Calling Hillary a “cheater” is the same tactic the Trump campaign used. Keep repeating things until they become ingrained in the consciousness’s of their voters. Its how the “deplorables” hurt her campaign so much. It was nothing compared to anything that Trump said and she even apologised for it: but that didn’t matter. So congrats on learning something from Trump. Yes. Because if she hadn’t cheated, then she may not have lost. Since when is repeating the truth wrong? Especially when there is a cult of the Madonna Hillary ready to dismiss the significance of cheating (at least in her case). > [@](#): > > And I learnt something from the elections as well. Everytime you use the word “cheater” or a variation on the word “cheat” I’m gonna call you a big baby. That’s because you are retarded. I don’t think anyone is going to look at your dismissal of cheating and say “you know what, that retard is totally right, there is nothing wrong with cheating and it has no effect on elections, why do people get mad about cheating anyway?” > [@](#): > > Bernie had a fuck load of negatives. You’ve named many of them. I’ve named a few. If Bernie had been the nominee maybe Hillary would have beaten Bernie by several points in every poll taken in 2016 instead. Real life is like that. A butterfly flaps its wings in Siberia and everyone goes and takes a dump. The polls were all from before Hillary was then nominee. Right, there is no real cause and effect when the cause if Hillary and the effect is a Trump presidency. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > That isn’t a reasonable conclusion to make at all. Of course it is. Hillary lost Wisconisn and Michigan by a whisker. Bernie beat Hillary by more than that whisker in the primary. I think it is almost certain that he would have won those states. I think it is also have won Pennsylvania and Florida. People may not give a shit about cheating where you come from but they care here, the birthplace of modern democracy. [quote] ROFL! BWAHAHAHAHAHHA! You are freaking hilarious.[/qute] IOW you got no response. > [@](#): > > No I’m not. I’m perfectly happy to say that the Clinton campaign fucked up. But you are obsessed with putting the entirety of the blame for the loss of this election on the shoulders of Hillary Clinton. You are incapable of stepping back and taking a nuanced, unbiased look at what happened. > > This election was not “very winnable.” Thats the kind of fucked up arrogance that got the Democrats to loose in the first place. I’m not saying that nothing else could possibly have been improved but in the end, the one big variable that we could control were nominating our candidate and anything else that we could control was within the candidate’s control. All those fuck ups you’re talking about, that’s just PART of what made her a shitty candidate. I don’t place all the blame on Hillary. I blame the “Ready for Hillary” crowd. I blame good men and women who could have beaten Trump who didn’t run. I blame the Republicans for not getting their act together and backing Cruz or Rubio or SOMEBODY before Trump an away with the nomination. I blame the pollsters for lulling us into a false sense of security. But in the end, Hillary was the determining variable that lost the election. There is more than one “but for” cause but Hillary was the PRIMARY reason for the Trump presidency. This election was eminently winnable. We had Republicans defecting to vote for Hillary (someone they have hated for most of their fucking lives). Given a more palatable choice, more people would have crossed over and fewer Democratic leaning folks would have stayed at home. > [@](#): > > I’d much rather we weren’t in a “debate”. But you keep saying stupid things. And here you are saying more stupid things. > > I run my own business. When things go wrong I don’t look for “someone to blame”. I identify what went wrong and take the appropriate correct action (whatever that may be) both in the short-term and the long term. If you can’t (or won’t) identify the problem its hard to take corrective action. > [@](#): > > What happened this election was a “perfect storm” of a whole lot of things “going wrong” that led to the eventual election of President Trump. > > You are ignoring that storm. And putting the blame on a single person. I think that is fucking stupid. We can’t do anything about the weather but when we nominated Hillary we all stood out in the rain holding lightning rods. Sure there were some other factors that didn’t have anything to do with Hillary and that Hillary couldn’t have mitigated that could have made a difference but those factors are overwhelmed by factor that are directly tracable to Hillary or to which Hillary could have responded. > [@](#): > > Your inferences aren’t reasonable. Inferring that Bernie was more popular than Hillary from polls showing Bernie was more popular than Hillary is about as reasonable an inference as you can get. > [@](#): > > But there was a lead yes? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Several polls had her losing and many polls had her winning by less than the margin of error. > [@](#): > > Clinton polled better than Trump. Trump won the election. I never said we should disregard the polls. I asked you what you thought that this means? Personally, I think this means that people were embarrassed to admit they supported Trump, even to a complete stranger. > [@](#): > > That really doesn’t make you any less arrogant. > > Nope. He would have been “labeled a dirty rotten socialist who wanted to raise taxes and put people out of home.” And he would STILL have beaten Trump. He would almost certainly have done better than Hillary. > [@](#): > > If that is what you are talking from my posts then you are a giant flaming moron. You can blame Hillary as much as you fucking want too. But blaming Hillary exclusively is just fucking stupid. Nothing else made as much of a difference and very little else was within our control. We couldn’t alleviate the underlying concerns that made Trump a more acceptable candidate than Hillary. We could have nominated a more palatable candidate. This is only anecdotal evidence but I know plenty of Trump voters and more than a handful say they would have voted for Bernie over Trump. Not a single Hillary voter I know would have voted for Trump over Bernie. I don’t think any of them would have even stayed home rather than vote for Bernie. > [@](#): > > You were wrong then and you are fucking wrong now. You quack like a duck. > [@](#): > > You dismiss Trumps victory in the GOP Primaries as an accident of statistics. Yet you put the entirety of the blame the election of Trump to the presidency of the United States on the shoulders of a single person. “Clinton Derangement Syndrome” is accurate. Perhaps the view wasn’t very good from where you are but the Republican primary was 16 Republicans standing in a circular firing squad with Trump throwing rotten eggs at them from 30 feet away. More of the spectators were cheering the guy throwing eggs than any of the members of the circular firing squad. > [@](#): > > Oh stop whining you big baby. You’re method o argument is retarded. You have no real response to the fact that she cheated so like the other “ready for Hillary” apologists you simply wave it away as a factor. > [@](#): > > A divided bloody war probably wasn’t in the best interests of the Democratic Party back then. So a cleared deck made perfect sense. Sure, it worked in the NY senate race so why wouldn’t I work for the US presidency, right? The excuse making is reaching epic levels. Long time New York politicians were told to drop out of the race or emperil their future political prospects in the state. Hillary won, but perhaps only because Guiliani contracted prostate cancer and had to drop out of the race. > [@](#): > > “As far as you could tell?” Fucking hell. Is that all you could see? > > “Populist outsider” and “corrupt, plutocratic insider” are just labels you’ve assigned based on your perception, not reality. Trump was perceived as in “outsider” because his campaign portrayed it that way. But there is no bigger “insider” than Trump. Trump ran a better propaganda campaign. It successfully managed to fool you. You’re either stupid or ignorant if you think Trump was an insider. The Clintons have the biggest political machine in the Democratic party if not the country outside of POTUS. Trump was such an outsider that there was a “never Trump movement” by Republican insiders. Other than donating to (bribing) politicians on both sides of the aisle, I don’t see how you reach the conclusion that Trump was an insider. > [@](#): > > The Trump campaign tore up the rule-book. He told outright lies at every step of the campaign. That’s not new to politics. Are you familiar with the “swiftboat veterans for truth” > **[Swift Vets and POWs for Truth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Vets_and_POWs_for_Truth#Truth_of_allegations)** > > Swift Vets and POWs for Truth, formerly known as the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (SBVT), was a political group (527 group) of United States Swift boat veterans and former prisoners of war of the Vietnam War, formed during the 2004 presidential election campaign for the purpose of opposing John Kerry's candidacy for the presidency. The campaign inspired the widely used political pejorative "swiftboating", to describe an unfair or untrue political attack. The group disbanded and ceased operati... Are you familiar with McCain’s black lovechild? Candidates used to distance themselves from this sort of outright lie through the use of outside organizations and proxies but Trump didn’t bother with those subtle distinctions. He just told the lies himself. > [@](#): > > He had no hesitation in out-right abusing people and groups. The Trump campaign were complete and utter hypocrites. They did everything that the “experts” would say is the wrong thing to do in a general election. And they won the election. THAT’S how bad a candidate Hillary was. People would pick a lying sonofabitch like Trump over someone like Hillary. > [@](#): > > You might think that Hillary is to blame for this. But the reality is much bigger than that. And every time I think about it it scares me a little bit more. It is much too big to deal with here. But if you ignore what the Trump campaign actually did: if you and people that think like you “win out” to take control of the Democrats then things are going to be a disaster in four years time. Are you saying that the fundamental nature of our country has changed so much that even if presented a choice between a palatable Democratic candidate and Trump, we would have picked Trump because we have changed in some way that makes Trump appealing to us? People swallowed hard to vote for Trump just as they swallowed hard to vote for Hillary. > [@](#): > > And the Trump campaign would have destroyed Bernie because he was a “dirty stinking socialist who wanted to raise your taxes.” Labels are not a one-way-street. In later polls people knew what he was and he was still beating Trump by more than hillary in every poll. > [@](#): > > Your arrogant streak is showing. Its not arrogance to say that Trump was a weak candidate. I think this might be the crux of our disagreement. I think Trump was a fucking joke. Everyone knew he was a joke but they preferred a lying bastard court jester to Hillary. THAT’S how bad a candidate she is. > [@](#): > > You can’t both claim that Bernie was a weak candidate that shouldn’t have caught up to Hillary AND that Bernie was such a strong candidate he would have beaten Trump to the presidency. That doesn’t make any fucking sense at all. Of course I can say that someone could be weaker in a partisan primary and stronger in a general election. I’m saying that someone with Bernie’s name recognition and resources should not even come close to someone with Hillary’s name recognition and resources. The fact that he could showed how weak she was as a candidate. He had less than 1% of her money until the primary season started. With the resources of the Democratic party behind him, he would have done much better than Hillary during the general. > [@](#): > > I think he probably would have lost all of the states that Hillary lost. Well named two red states (states that voted for Trump in 2016) that he would have won, can you name two blue states that he would have lost? > [@](#): > > And here you are throwing a large segment of the left-leaning voter under the bus as well. I know very well you don’t give a shit about his relationships with “SJW’s.” Bernie went on a march? He fought for gay rights? That is the very least any of us could do. Did Hillary march with MLK? No, she campaigned for Barry Goldwater in 1964 who opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 a lynchpin law for civil rights in this country. Did Hillary support gay marriage or did she support her husband and his Defense of Marriage Act excusing states from honoring the gay marriages performed in other states; and Don’t Ask Don’t Tell policy in the military telling servicemen and women to stay in the closet? So if those things are the least any of us can do. Did Hillary meet your standards of “least anyone could do” > [@](#): > > Have a read of the timeline of the Angry Black Lady regarding her views of Sanders. > > [x.com](https://twitter.com/search?q=bernie%20from%3AAngryBlackLady&src=typd) > > Her views of course are her own, and she is by no means representative of any movement, especially one which is usually used as an insult like “SJW.” But it is obvious that “Bernie being unpopular” is news to you. So at least here is a place you can start. Yes, a twitter account is about as anecdotal as you can get. I’m glad SJWs exist. it helps the rest of us liberals differentiate ourselves from the “safety space/trigger word/political correctness as a form of censorship/everybody gets a participation trophy” snowflakes that turn so many people off. > [@](#): > > How about you explain how the fuck Bernie Sanders could be considered a “Social Justice Warrior?” I am using SJW (in this case) as a non-perjorative term for someone ho actually pursues social justice. He might also be a triggerword/safety space/snowflake but I don’t have evidence of that. > [@](#): > > Oh grow the fuck up you big baby. You’re retarded. Cheating matters here in the birthplace of modern democray, even if it doesn’t matter where you’re from. > [@](#): > > In your MOST HUMBLE of opinions. > > You put words in his mouth and then gave him shit for something he/she didn’t say. Strawman. > > You attributed something to him that he/she didn’t actually say. of course he did. Why do you think he said “thanks moocher” I think it was pretty clear to everybody that he was talking about the Russian mob and your intentional ignorane on this issue is whittling away your almost non-existent credibility. > [@](#): > > They are not “immune.” They don’t have a magic bubble that stops a distant cousin from being kidnapped, threatened with violence and the President intimidated. This is of course very unlikely: but to claim the President is “immune” is simply incorrect. This is was we call quibbling pettifoggery. It has nothing to do with the initial post where Drad Dog implies that Trump would be a craven puppet of Russian interests because the Russian mob would threaten him with physical violence. You’re being retarded. I guess its just retard solidarity. > [@](#): > > Well I’m not. And guess what? Next time you ask, you are gonna get the very same answer. You’re quacking like a duck. > [@](#): > > You are mad at the wrong thing. Hillary is not a thing. She is a person. A smart, competent, hard-working person who also happens to be horrible candidate that is responsible for the rump presidency. > [@](#): > > I am aware that my arguments are well reasoned. Thanks for acknowledging that. But you didn’t answer my question. Wait so you don’t know what apologetics means and ask me what you are apologizing for so I link you to the term apologetics and you take that as a compliment and demand to know what I think you are apologizing for? Move over Elvis, there’s a new retard in town. > [@](#): > > If these people exist then go fucking argue with them then. I am not on their fucking side. Stop attributing to me arguments I haven’t made. You are still quacking like a duck. You are a Hillary apologist. I haven’t heard any conspiracy theory from you but we were talking about drad dog and people who are using Russia in their apologetics. I don’t think you are blaming foreign powers or some conspiracy by the hackers of the world or by the FBI for Hillary’s loss. I think our disagreement lies in the fact that I think that Hillary was a horribly bad candidate and you think that Hillary was a good candidate but Trump was an exceptionally good one. > [@](#): > > I would suspect that what these people actually said is very different to what you claim they have said. You don’t do nuance very well. > > And yet you can’t quote him/her saying “the fucking Russian mob is going to blackmail Trump into doing their bidding because he owes them money” because he/she never fucking said it. They are even in this thread pleading with you to stop misrepresenting them and you are ignoring it. Sad. > > No need to. I asked you to back up your assertion and you failed miserably. You are being willfully blind. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/776 "2017-01-06T16:32:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You don’t have the secret service and the FBI protecting you. You don’t have the might of the most powerful military in the world at your beck and call. > > The notion that some nation or organization could exert this sort of influence over POTUS is fucking retarded. Stop being retarded. Dumdum you’re back! So you’re going to die on that hill. I’m also not being threatened with assassination either. It was an illustration of your lack of thought on these matters. It had a point that still stands after your dribble. I guess donnie could nuke someone who wished him harm? Send in the marines? That always works well with non-state actors who have no fixed address. Brilliant, dimdum. You’re right on form today. In addition to this and most importantly of all: Right now donnie is feuding with the CIA before he even gets into office! He’s tweeting at them, trying to tear down their cred, when he needs them just as much as we do. Have you been looking at the big tv box? The FBI!!?: Well here’s something you apparently don’t know because you are ignorant or else have the retention of a goldfish: [http://blogs.dickinson.edu/hist-fbi/2012/05/01/what-happened-between-john-f-kennedy-and-j-edgar-hoover/](http://blogs.dickinson.edu/hist-fbi/2012/05/01/what-happened-between-john-f-kennedy-and-j-edgar-hoover/) You are saying that presidents are immune to threats of blackmail. Wrong again dimwit. Maybe you think donnie is cleaner than that dirty minded JFK. Hold on to that thought. You will have it all to yourself. Just throw the word retarded at everything you can’t understand. Someday it’ll work or you’ll die of old age, one. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/777 "2017-01-06T16:39:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I think I like you too. 😃 Just stop trying to help me out here. 🙂 I thought you were helping me. (I don’t use emojis) I’m just not going to let this debate be overton windowed over into republican talking points, which is really what is happening. I was very sincere in inviting anyone to tell me what I said that’s not reasonably inferred given an opaque administration with a grifter and balloon animal crook coming into power. But I’m tired of seeing my name come up. And this is the pit. If dumwad apologizes I will consider making a style change. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/778 "2017-01-06T18:34:46Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Dumdum you’re back! So you’re going to die on that hill. I’m pretty sure you are the one doing the dying. Russian mafia… pfft:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I’m also not being threatened with assassination either. It was an illustration of your lack of thought on these matters. It had a point that still stands after your dribble. > > I guess donnie could nuke someone who wished him harm? Send in the marines? That always works well with non-state actors who have no fixed address. Brilliant, dimdum. You’re right on form today. Wait, didn’t you say that the Russians were involved somehow? > [@](#): > > In addition to this and most importantly of all: Right now donnie is feuding with the CIA before he even gets into office! He’s tweeting at them, trying to tear down their cred, when he needs them just as much as we do. Have you been looking at the big tv box? I only watch game of thrones, walking dead and now westworld. Mostly on a mobile device. What’s the CIA got to do with this. > [@](#): > > The FBI!!?: Well here’s something you apparently don’t know because you are ignorant or else have the retention of a goldfish: > > [What Happened Between John F. Kennedy and J. Edgar Hoover? | Visions of Red](http://blogs.dickinson.edu/hist-fbi/2012/05/01/what-happened-between-john-f-kennedy-and-j-edgar-hoover/) You know J Edgar Hoover is dead, right? > [@](#): > > You are saying that presidents are immune to threats of blackmail. Wrong again dimwit. Maybe you think donnie is cleaner than that dirty minded JFK. Hold on to that thought. You will have it all to yourself. I thought we were talking about threats of physical violence. But if your proposal is that some Russian outfit had some damning information on Hillary AND Trump but held back the evidence on Trump back because they thought he would win the presidency and they would be able to hold it over their head then you are deep into conspiracy theory territory. > [@](#): > > Just throw the word retarded at everything you can’t understand. Someday it’ll work or you’ll die of old age, one. Its starting to be come clearer and clearer that you haven’t mastered the task of thinking clearly. You might be perpetually drunk, but the simpler answer is that you’re retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/779 "2017-01-06T18:47:08Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I thought you were helping me. (I don’t use emojis) > > I’m just not going to let this debate be overton windowed over into republican talking points, which is really what is happening. I was very sincere in inviting anyone to tell me what I said that’s not reasonably inferred given an opaque administration with a grifter and balloon animal crook coming into power. > > But I’m tired of seeing my name come up. And this is the pit. If dumwad apologizes I will consider making a style change. I’m sorry you made a retarded statement about the Russian mafia and their possible influence over Trump and cannot seem to bring yourself to admitting how fucking retarded this is. Obviously, Obamacare isn’t comprehensive enough to cover whatever is afflicting you. But seriously. I’m not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings. I try not to be insulting to any poster no matter how much I disagree with them unless they start with the insults, then I hit back, as would you. If you feel I was insulting to you personally (rather than insulting to your notion or ideas) before you ever threw a disparaging remark in my direction), then I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/780 "2017-01-07T19:31:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > An empty “gotcha” attempt, since you didn’t even specify what your supposed point is. > > If you are going with the silly line about how the Democrats lost because they were mean to the poor oppressed bigots, that’s nonsense. This election was won by lies and hatred; not by being nice. > > If the Democrats were half as dishonest and nasty as their opponents claim, _they_ would probably have won; this election demonstrates that’s what the American public \*wants. \*Lies and hatred. Did you even read my post? Guess not so let me sum it up for you: In 2016 the Democrats were so blind to Clinton’s failings they honestly can’t see why anyone would vote _against_ her (and hence for Trump). Many Trump supporter may be ignorant but then again, so are meny Clinton supporters in their own way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=40)