# "Is it that the Dems don't understand white, working-class America?" No, that's not it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291 "2016-11-28T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/161 "2016-12-01T15:51:35Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Like someone else said… > > You bought the horse, now ride it. > > There is also the “Cinemax and Netflix” analogy. You bought the entire package. Now deal with it. My version: “You buttered your bread, now you have to lie in it.” ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/162 "2016-12-01T16:09:25Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Yeah, but by then the Republicans will have killed off the _entire_ population that refuses to vote for them. Just for the lulz. This is a bit off. As some women and brown people voted for Trump. If you’d have been paying attention you’d realize that what Trump really said was that he was going to murder ALL NON-WHITE MALES!!! GO TRUMP!!! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/163 "2016-12-01T18:16:35Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > The bigots got outvoted then, because Democrats didn’t stay home. Voter turnout was not much lower than in 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/164 "2016-12-01T18:18:57Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Liberal positions? **Der Trihs**? You have to be kidding. He is so far to the left of liberalism as to make Stalinism seem moderate. I was wondering why he didn’t support Bernie more then I realized that from where he is standing on the political spectrum, they both look like dots on the horizon. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/165 "2016-12-01T18:29:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes I do, since his opponent was far worse on the issue (and many others). There was no issue related to bigotry in which McCain was better than Obama, and several issues in which he was worse. There is no issue related to bigotry in which Trump is better than Hillary Clinton, and many issues in which he is worse. > > But I separate McCain and Trump, since McCain never said overtly bigoted things and Trump did. McCain didn’t campaign on anything related to bigotry (except perhaps opposition to gay marriage, though I don’t remember that being a significant part of his campaign) – Trump rose to prominence and campaigned largely on bigoted statements and stances. Quite the opposite. IIRC, McCain lost the 2000 Republican primary because some Bush operatives in South Carolina spread the rumor that the daughter that McCain adopted from one of Mother Teresa’s orphanages was actually McCain’s love child with a black woman. IIRC, when Republican operatives were spreading the rumor that Obama was a Muslim, McCain publicly corrected members of an audience that brought up the issue. He has some bigoted views on women and gays in the military (and gays in general). I didn’t agree with McCain on gays in the military but I would have vote for him over Gore (and I voted for him over Bush in the primary, this was back in the day when I considered Republicans to be a viable alternative to Democrats, you know, before we invaded Iraq and the GOP lost its mind). So, I can see how someone can disagree with Trump on applying a religious test to refugees but still support him over Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/166 "2016-12-01T18:39:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Quite the opposite. > > IIRC, McCain lost the 2000 Republican primary because some Bush operatives in South Carolina spread the rumor that the daughter that McCain adopted from one of Mother Teresa’s orphanages was actually McCain’s love child with a black woman. > > IIRC, when Republican operatives were spreading the rumor that Obama was a Muslim, McCain publicly corrected members of an audience that brought up the issue. > > He has some bigoted views on women and gays in the military (and gays in general). > > I didn’t agree with McCain on gays in the military but I would have vote for him over Gore (and I voted for him over Bush in the primary, this was back in the day when I considered Republicans to be a viable alternative to Democrats, you know, before we invaded Iraq and the GOP lost its mind). So, I can see how someone can disagree with Trump on applying a religious test to refugees but still support him over Hillary. I can see how people do many things, but supporting Trump without being personally bigoted means that one doesn’t place much value on opposing bigotry, or else being ignorant of what bigotry can actually consist of, both of which I think warrant strong criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/167 "2016-12-01T18:59:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I can see how people do many things, but supporting Trump without being personally bigoted means that one doesn’t place much value on opposing bigotry, or else being ignorant of what bigotry can actually consist of, both of which I think warrant strong criticism. You can oppose bigotry and still vote for the bigot because your alternative is Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/168 "2016-12-01T19:03:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You can oppose bigotry and still vote for the bigot because your alternative is Hillary. If so, I think your (not you personally) values are seriously out of whack and you deserve a lot of criticism. Nothing Hillary did or proposed comes close to as bad as the damage that bigotry does to America. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/169 "2016-12-01T19:23:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If so, I think your (not you personally) values are seriously out of whack and you deserve a lot of criticism. Nothing Hillary did or proposed comes close to as bad as the damage that bigotry does to America. But, but, but, emails… benghazi… whitewater… See there’s three things, compared to the singular of Trump’s enabling and encouraging of bigotry and intolerance, easy choice. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/170 "2016-12-01T21:35:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I can see how people do many things, but supporting Trump without being personally bigoted means that one doesn’t place much value on opposing bigotry, or else being ignorant of what bigotry can actually consist of, both of which I think warrant strong criticism. Or… more likely, they do place value on opposing bigotry, but not as much as some other things, like say keeping jobs in the US, or dealing with illegal immigration, or any of those other things that the Republicans/Trump espouse. As a hypothetical, there are almost certainly people out there who are more concerned than anything else with stock-market performance due to its effects on their retirement income. They may be the most unbigoted people in the world, but when it comes to safeguarding their livelihood, they’re going to vote for that every single time, even if it unfortunately means voting for things that may not be good for people of color, gays, etc… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/171 "2016-12-01T21:52:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If so, I think your (not you personally) values are seriously out of whack and you deserve a lot of criticism. Nothing Hillary did or proposed comes close to as bad as the damage that bigotry does to America. Corruption is just as bad. Now I’m not saying Trump is less corrupt, but you can’t discount people being fed up with a corrupt establishment and wanting a message sent to the corrupt establishment. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/172 "2016-12-01T22:06:31Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Or… more likely, they do place value on opposing bigotry, but not as much as some other things, like say keeping jobs in the US, or dealing with illegal immigration, or any of those other things that the Republicans/Trump espouse. > > As a hypothetical, there are almost certainly people out there who are more concerned than anything else with stock-market performance due to its effects on their retirement income. > > They may be the most unbigoted people in the world, but when it comes to safeguarding their livelihood, they’re going to vote for that every single time, even if it unfortunately means voting for things that may not be good for people of color, gays, etc… This doesn’t dispute what I said. I think such folks have values way out of whack and deserve criticism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/173 "2016-12-01T22:07:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Corruption is just as bad. Now I’m not saying Trump is less corrupt, but you can’t discount people being fed up with a corrupt establishment and wanting a message sent to the corrupt establishment. Bigotry has done far, far more damage (slavery, near genocide, Jim Crow, etc) to America and Americans than corruption. Bigotry is far, far worse. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/174 "2016-12-01T22:14:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bigotry has done far, far more damage (slavery, near genocide, Jim Crow, etc) to America and Americans than corruption. Bigotry is far, far worse. I know white supremacy is your boogeyman but wars of conquest and slavery have existed far longer than the USA has and are still an ongoing problem. The USA and the U.K. also worked very hard to lessen slavery worldwide. So, in my mind, while bigotry is bad at least western nations work against. Corruption on the other hand undermines the rule of law and the legitimacy of the state and I find that worse. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/175 "2016-12-01T22:24:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Corruption is just as bad. Now I’m not saying Trump is less corrupt, but you can’t discount people being fed up with a corrupt establishment and wanting a message sent to the corrupt establishment. Yeah, the message was, “Here’s a big helping of corruption to put on top. Comes with a side of bigotry.” Not a message I have a great deal of respect for. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/176 "2016-12-01T22:25:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, the message was, “Here’s a big helping of corruption to put on top. Comes with a side of bigotry.” > > Not a message I have a great deal of respect for. That’s fine. I’m just saying a corrupt establishment has real costs. One of them is demagoguery being palatable. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/177 "2016-12-01T22:32:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s fine. I’m just saying a corrupt establishment has real costs. One of them is demagoguery being palatable. If you have people, you are going to have corruption. That’s pretty much an unavoidable situation. The trick is to limit the corruption to as little as possible, and have what does go on be the kind of productive corruption that everyone expects. (The politician gets a kickback, but the road does get built.) Now, can you show me why people thought that Obama and or Clinton were more corrupt than Donald Trump, without relying on fake news? I don’t think that the amount of corruption in the party of the government was the reason for the election, but the perception of the amount of corruption, as pushed by fake news sites, may have been. How exactly you combat perceptions that are based on lies is a topic for another [ongoing thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=811583) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/178 "2016-12-01T22:37:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I know white supremacy is your boogeyman but wars of conquest and slavery have existed far longer than the USA has and are still an ongoing problem. The USA and the U.K. also worked very hard to lessen slavery worldwide. So, in my mind, while bigotry is bad at least western nations work against. Corruption on the other hand undermines the rule of law and the legitimacy of the state and I find that worse. There has been progress, but electing someone who ran on bigotry is a big setback. Bigotry also can undermine the rule of law and the legitimacy of the state, in addition to the many other terrible things it does. I don’t think there’s a comparison. In US history, bigotry is responsible for the subjugation, brutal oppression, and deaths of millions. Corruption doesn’t come close. Even if we’ve made a lot of progress in opposing bigotry, preventing backslides _absolutely must_ be a higher priority even than things like opposing corruption. There’s still enough hatred in society, and still enough apathy about the fate of minorities, that terrible things could happen if we’re not careful. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/179 "2016-12-01T22:40:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you have people, you are going to have corruption. That’s pretty much an unavoidable situation. > > The trick is to limit the corruption to as little as possible, and have what does go on be the kind of productive corruption that everyone expects. (The politician gets a kickback, but the road does get built.) > > Now, can you show me why people thought that Obama and or Clinton were more corrupt than Donald Trump, without relying on fake news? > > I don’t think that the amount of corruption in the party of the government was the reason for the election, but the perception of the amount of corruption, as pushed by fake news sites, may have been. > > How exactly you combat perceptions that are based on lies is a topic for another [ongoing thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=811583) You miss my point. It’s not relative corruption. It’s that a corrupt establishment person is a target for a charismatic demagogue. Even a highly flawed demagogue. People need to stop thinking of people as rational. I don’t think this was the major reason that Clinton lost but it had an impact. And with what she had to lose vs what she had to gain it strikes me as she’s a tiny bit paranoid to have taken that risk. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/180 "2016-12-01T22:44:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There has been progress, but electing someone who ran on bigotry is a big setback. Bigotry also can undermine the rule of law and the legitimacy of the state, in addition to the many other terrible things it does. > > I don’t think there’s a comparison. In US history, bigotry is responsible for the subjugation, brutal oppression, and deaths of millions. Corruption doesn’t come close. Even if we’ve made a lot of progress in opposing bigotry, preventing backslides _absolutely must_ be a higher priority even than things like opposing corruption. There’s still enough hatred in society, and still enough apathy about the fate of minorities, that terrible things could happen if we’re not careful. Perhaps you are right. I just see a higher threat to functioning democracy from a loss of faith in democracy than I do with opposing illegal immigration or opposing dangerous ideologies masked with the term religion. If I’m wrong and I start seeing interment camps and reeducation camps and Twitter and Facebook are controlled by a modern day Goebbels then sign me up for the resistance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291.md?page=10)