# Is it the Magna Carta, or just Magna Carta? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 31, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999 "2014-03-31T16:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/21 "2014-04-01T10:06:38Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > I’m starting to understand the problem. It reminds me of a question I’ve had for a long time. Which of the following is correct, and can you give clear reasons for your choice: > [ol] > [li]I read it in the New York Times. [/li][li]I read it in The New York Times. [/li][li]I read it in the The New York Times.[/li][/ol] 2 is correct - it’s the “The” is part of the name of the newspaper. English isn’t a programming language, so the fact that 3 is silly is reason enough not to use it. Also, “King John signed the Magna Carta” is correct, surely? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/22 "2014-04-01T13:52:55Z")
No, because he didn’t sign it. 😉 He had one of his clerks attach the royal seal to it. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/23 "2014-04-01T15:09:47Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Magna Carta is a Latin phrase, but in this context it is also the name of something making it an English phrase as well. Colis(s)eum is a Latin word, but The Roman Colis(s)eum is at least one of the common names of a particular building in Rome. Isn’t it “Colosseum”? I think Coliseum is some sort of weird latter-day bastardization of the word used for sports arenas and civic centers in the early-mid 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/24 "2014-04-01T20:34:38Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Isn’t it “Colosseum”? I think Coliseum is some sort of weird latter-day bastardization of the word used for sports arenas and civic centers in the early-mid 20th century. I agree. I didn’t want to get into a spelling discussion, so I tried to be broad going by the Wiki page, [Colosseum - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colosseum), which gives Coliseum as an alternate spelling. Of course I was concentrating too hard on getting the parentheses around the s and messed up the vowel. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/25 "2014-04-01T21:42:46Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Clearly (2) is. The New York Times is the name on the masthead of the paper. So what was it he read in The New York Times? A review of a concert by The Rolling Stones, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/26 "2014-04-02T01:48:55Z")
From [this style guide](http://dictionary.reference.com/writing/styleguide/capitalization.html) on capitalization > [@](#): > > names of historical and legal documents, e.g. Magna Carta, the First Amendment > periodical titles, e.g. The New York Times, The Chicago Tribune, National Geographic I suspect that the “correct” usage is without the “the” but as it doesn’t sound right to many people, an unnecessary “the” gets appended. The [National Geographic style guide](http://stylemanual.ngs.org/home/S/ships-and-boats) says this about ships. > [@](#): > > Ship and boat names in text are italic with initial caps. If a ship or boat has no name other than the hull number, then italicize the hull number as you would a ship name. The use of the with ship and boat names depends on readability and personal preference. As an English teaching in Taiwan, I regularly get these questions, and sometimes will track it down more, but I don’t have time today. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/27 "2014-04-02T06:17:09Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’m aware that Cutty Sark is a Scots term (I did just visit the ship) but that doesn’t change anything. The different contexts you’ve listed don’t change anything either. > > HMS includes “her,” so doesn’t need an article as well. Though I definitely have seen people use one, same as they sometimes say PIN number. > > Would you say “Titanic sank in 1912” or “the Titanic sank in 1912”? The latter, surely? Context is everything and English has no rules that are not broken rationally in practice. If you are looking for a definite answer that is consistent you will be disappointed. There is also a massive regional variation over the use of the definite article dividing North America from the rest of the English speaking world (Do you go to hospital or go to the hospital?) “Olympic, Titanic and Britannic were ships of the White Star Line” my example. “RMS Titanic was a British passenger liner that sank in the North Atlantic Ocean…” start of wikipedia article > **[Titanic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic)** > > RMS Titanic was a British ocean liner that sank in the early hours of 15 April 1912 as a result of striking an iceberg on her maiden voyage from Southampton, England, to New York City, United States. It was the second time White Star Line had lost a ship on its maiden voyage, the first being the RMS Tayleur in 1854. Of the estimated 2,224 passengers and crew aboard, approximately 1,500 died (figures vary), making the incident one of the deadliest peacetime sinkings of a single ship. Titanic, ... “Letter written on-board Titanic hours before it sank expected to fetch £100,000 at auction” > **[Letter written on-board Titanic hours before it sank expected to fetch...](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/titanic-letter-letter-written-on-board-3320114#ixzz2xhtNuAhe)** > > It was penned by Esther Hart, who survived with her daughter - writing to her mother in Essex, she told she was having “a wonderful passage” despite the cold ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/28 "2014-04-02T07:17:44Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Context is everything and English has no rules that are not broken rationally in practice. If you are looking for a definite answer that is consistent you will be disappointed. There is also a massive regional variation over the use of the definite article dividing North America from the rest of the English speaking world (Do you go to hospital or go to the hospital?) > > “Olympic, Titanic and Britannic were ships of the White Star Line” my example. > > “RMS Titanic was a British passenger liner that sank in the North Atlantic Ocean…” start of wikipedia article > [Titanic - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic) > “Letter written on-board Titanic hours before it sank expected to fetch £100,000 at auction” > > [http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/titanic-letter-letter-written-on-board-3320114#ixzz2xhtNuAhe](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/titanic-letter-letter-written-on-board-3320114#ixzz2xhtNuAhe) No, English does have rules; not laws decided by people, but consistent patterns that aid comprehension. When people say there are no rules it’s just because they don’t know what the rules are; they’re native speakers, so they use the rules perfectly well and don’t need them spelling out - most of the time, anyway. The “rules” are not being broken in your instances, apart from perhaps your own - there are good reasons for the others. RMS replaces the article, and newspaper headlines often omit words - that one’s also omitted the be verb in the passive, as headlines usually do. See? There are reasons there. Language isn’t just random words thrown together in the hope that someone can make sense of them. Well, except perhaps Finnegan’s Wake… ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/29 "2014-04-02T07:20:36Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > From [this style guide](http://dictionary.reference.com/writing/styleguide/capitalization.html) on capitalizationI suspect that the “correct” usage is without the “the” but as it doesn’t sound right to many people, an unnecessary “the” gets appended. > > The [National Geographic style guide](http://stylemanual.ngs.org/home/S/ships-and-boats) says this about ships. > As an English teaching in Taiwan, I regularly get these questions, and sometimes will track it down more, but I don’t have time today. That makes sense about the Magna Carta. The National Geographic style guide is a little vague - personal preference, fine, but for something to have better “readability” there’s got to be some structural rule that makes it more readable. Good cite though, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/30 "2014-04-02T15:59:52Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The National Geographic style guide is a little vague - personal preference, fine, but for something to have better “readability” there’s got to be some structural rule that makes it more readable. Good cite though, thanks. OK, a little more awake now. How about [this cite](http://www.theshippinglawblog.com/2011/02/maritime-style-guide_09.html) from _The Shipping Law Blog_ > [@](#): > > 1. No Need for the ‘the’ > You do not have to put ‘the’ before a vessel’s name, unless it is part of the name itself. For example, if a ship called “Titan” had entered a port, it is better to say ’ “Titan” entered the port ', rather than ‘The “Titan” entered the port’. > > This rule can be difficult when vessels are named after certain things. For instance, where a vessel is named “Emperor”, it is very tempting to refer to it as ’ the “Emperor” ', as you would refer to a real Emperor. But we have to remember that it is a name and not a description or title. Imagine you called your cat Emperor, you would not say ‘the Emperor came around the corner’, you would just say ‘Emperor came around the corner’. The same rule applies. One can only assume this author has never had a cat or said author would know that the cat would wish to be addressed as “The Emperor.” Anyway, doing a google search of “the Titanic” vs. “Titanic” showed a difference of between 3.6 million and 33 million hits. I think that as ships have become less and less a part of our lives, then more and more of us don’t know the formal protocol. It does look like ships originally did not take “the” but use of that article is so commonplace now, that it can sound odd without. Look at the following from the wiki entry on _Titanic_. > [@](#): > > The sinking of Titanic caused the deaths of more than 1,500 people in one of the deadliest peacetime maritime disasters in modern history. The RMS Titanic was the largest ship afloat at the time it entered service. Titanic was the second of three Olympic class ocean liners operated by the White Star Line, and was built by the Harland and Wolff shipyard in Belfast with Thomas Andrews as her naval architect. It’s written both ways in the same paragraph. Of course, wiki is edited by different people, so this isn’t completely unexpected. However, going over to the [Wall Street Journal](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304444604577337923643095442?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304444604577337923643095442.html) where the entire article uses “the Titanic” except for one place where other ships are given “the” > [@](#): > > Had Titanic sunk more slowly, it would have been surrounded by the Frankfurt, the Mount Temple, the Birma, the Virginian, the Olympic, the Baltic and the first on the scene, the Carpathia. The North Atlantic was a busy stretch of sea. Or, had the Californian (within visual range of the unfolding tragedy) responded to distress calls, the lifeboats would have been adequate for the purpose they were intended—to ferry passengers to safety. methinks people don’t write carefully enough. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999/31 "2014-04-02T18:48:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I suppose it might depend on whether you consider it an English term or a Latin one. Terms co-opted from another language often retain their original articles: For instance, it’s “El Camino Real”, not “The El Camino Real” or “The Camino Real”. But Latin doesn’t have articles, so the Latin translation of “The Great Charter” would just be “Magna Carta”. In out house we call if The Real Deal because of all the shopping malls and car dealerships which dot the street 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-the-magna-carta-or-just-magna-carta/684999.md?page=1)